What defines a truly English carp?

[dezza]

Since the death of Benson, I noticed comments that he/she was not a true English fish and was imported from France.

So what could be classified as a true English carp?

Even the original stock of the legendary Redmire Pool came from Holland.

But what do you think?

 

[Chris Frankish 2]

Since the death of Benson, I noticed comments that he/she was not a true English fish and was imported from France.

So what could be classified as a true English carp?

Even the original stock of the legendary Redmire Pool came from Holland.

But what do you think?

Now , heres a question that's likely to open up a whole big can of worms Ron.

Benson was actually imported from Belgium , both times so I understand (shh)

Technically a true English carp is one that is born here. We'd say the same of any person born here so it should apply to make the carp "English".

I think what you're asking though Ron is what is an English carp when it comes to it being accepted by anglers who use the term "proper old English carp" as opposed to an import?

In truth there is no English strain of carp. Like us they're a bit of a mongrel because of the different strains that have been brought into the UK over the years and then cross bred. Most carp anglers will be aware of the Galician strain,more commonly referred to as Leneys after Donald Leney from the Surrey Trout Farm as he was responsible for the sourcing and the supply of them into the UK.

Not so many people will be aware of the other strains like the Ropsha strain from Central Europe or the Dinkelsbuhl from Germany, Dinks for short.

Depending on where you live in the country and what different strains have had the opportunity to inter breed decides which particular heritage your "English" carp have.

 

[Stealph Viper]

I have to agree with Chris,

For me an English Carp is a Carp Born and Bred in England, it may well have 2 foreign imported parents lol, but it would still be an English Carp in my eyes.

Tight Lines

 

[dezza]

The Galician strain carp that were stocked into Redmire in the 30s came from The Surrey Trout Farm in Haslemere. Donald Leney got them from a fish farm in Holland near Vaasen - De Nederlandsche Heidemaatschappij. There were also other waters stocked by Leney, including Billing Aquadrome, The Peterborough Cut, Ashlea Pool, and a small lake near Harrogate - Yorkshire that I fished with Tag Barnes, and caught carp in 1965.

It is likely that the carp that were stocked into South African waters also came from the same fish farm in 1896.

The Redmire fish were 5 to 8 inches in length and were stocked into the pool in 1934. There were 50 all told whose growth rate was incredible. The owners of the water wanted something in it to keep down the weed growth down, so carp were selected.

They became the most celebrated carp of all time, yet they were born in Holland.

 

[Stealph Viper]

Mind you, it is a lovely looking Pool and the Carp that reside there are very beautiful.
Saying that, i have never visited redmire Pool, i am going off what i saw on the Passion for Angling tv series.

Tight Lines

 

[Bluenose]

Very interesting that Ronald. I had no idea those Redmire fish were Dutch.

 

[Chris Frankish 2]

I think most if not all of the fish that were imported during the period of time which saw the major initial stockings of "king" carp (late 19th century to the 1960s) were similar in size to those stocked in Redmire. This was also the size stocked from Thomas Ford's Trout Farm from the late 1800s, 1890 I think, to the 1930s. Fords most likely responsible for the fish stocked into Croxby which was producing double figure fish before the turn of the century.

My point being that in those days "fingerlings" were stocked into waters which then grew on to be whatever size in that lake. As such I'd class them as grown in England and as such a product of the water concerned.This would also make them, in my book, an acceptable fish to be called a British record carp if they attained that size.

I think the turning point arrived in the 70s with Cuttle Mill and the import of carp over 20lb in weight to stock what we would now call an "instant" venue. **** Walker hailed it as the way forward so that "big" carp fishing was available now to all.

Once carp were seen as a profitable asset within a water , the bigger the better of course, then the trend towards importing larger carp gained momentum.

This is where we get the question "What size is acceptable?" raising its head and then we go onto another topic altogether. It gets confusing doesn't it.

BTW Ron, are you the same Ron Clay that had quite a result at Billing?

 

[Frothey]

I have to agree with Chris,

For me an English Carp is a Carp Born and Bred in England, it may well have 2 foreign imported parents lol, but it would still be an English Carp in my eyes.

Tight Lines

mainly stunted commons these days......

---------- Post added at 18:14 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

BTW Ron, are you the same Ron Clay that had quite a result at Billing?

Don't you mean Ray Clay? Ron popularised the "any species lazy fishing" method.

 

[Chris Frankish 2]

I knew there was some Clay in there somewhere lol

I'm interested to hear more of this "any species lazy fishing"

 

[Stealph Viper]

Cassius Clay ......... Flies like a Butterfly and Swims like a Dutch Carp.

 

[dezza]

Dear old Ray Clay, a one time member of the Northampton Specimen Group, died some years ago. He was, I believe, a distant relative.

The NSG was formed just after my own Northern Specimen Group and comprised some very capable anglers in it's time. Fred Wagstaffe, Bob Church, Cyril Inwood, Bev Perkins, Keith Robinson, Frank Cutler, **** Shrive and a few more.

Most of my carp history facts are gleaned from Kevin Clifford's great tome: A History of Carp Fishing

This is a book every British carp angler with a sense of history should read.

And although Walker's fame grew mainly because of an incredible fluke (his words) - the capture of the record carp, he was never a carp fisher for all that long. After the capture of Clarissa and a 34 pounder he took in 1954, he virtually gave up carp fishing.

He admitted to me in a letter and in his Angling Times Column ca 1978, that there was a danger that carp were being over-populated in many English waters. These days I tend to agree. The stocking of thousands of small carp and F1 type hybrids into small fisheries in my opinion is not an ethically sound idea. A few big carp is a good idea, along with other interesting speicies in the same water.

Another interesting fact is the growth of the Redmire fish. In just over 15 years these fish were all over 20lbs in weight, some of them reaching twice that figure and more, all on a diet of daphnia and bloodworms. Remember carp anglers did not use high protein baits such as boilies in those days. Only bits of bread for most of the time.

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------

I knew there was some Clay in there somewhere lol

I'm interested to hear more of this "any species lazy fishing"

And so would I.

Although I formed a specimen group in 1962 and did spend a lot of my time after what are termed - specimen fish, I eventually became more interested in catching a wide variety of species, salt water too.

And of course I grew to love fly fishing and all it typifies.

 

[preston96]

Dear old Ray Clay, a one time member of the Northampton Specimen Group, died some years ago. He was, I believe, a distant relative.

The NSG was formed just after my own Northern Specimen Group and comprised some very capable anglers in it's time. Fred Wagstaffe, Bob Church, Cyril Inwood, Bev Perkins, Keith Robinson, Frank Cutler, **** Shrive and a few more.

Most of my carp history facts are gleaned from Kevin Clifford's great tome: A History of Carp Fishing

This is a book every British carp angler with a sense of history should read.

And although Walker's fame grew mainly because of an incredible fluke (his words) - the capture of the record carp, he was never a carp fisher for all that long. After the capture of Clarissa and a 34 pounder he took in 1954, he virtually gave up carp fishing.

He admitted to me in a letter and in his Angling Times Column ca 1978, that there was a danger that carp were being over-populated in many English waters. These days I tend to agree. The stocking of thousands of small carp and F1 type hybrids into small fisheries in my opinion is not an ethically sound idea. A few big carp is a good idea, along with other interesting speicies in the same water.

Another interesting fact is the growth of the Redmire fish. In just over 15 years these fish were all over 20lbs in weight, some of them reaching twice that figure and more, all on a diet of daphnia and bloodworms. Remember carp anglers did not use high protein baits such as boilies in those days. Only bits of bread for most of the time.

A good thread Ron..........i don't know if i agree with you on everything, but some good debate here.........i don't think the Redmire carp could have grown to the size they did on the available daphnia and bloodworm could they?

I don't known Redmire, but i do know the surrounding area and they way any "puddle" can colour up, don't daphnia and bloodworm need a clearer enviorment to thrive enough to give these carp a diet sufficent to reach the weight they did?

Some of these pools do hold an immense supply of small silverfish......could this be what the redmire carp turned to, fish fry?

I know they can be that way inclined.

I do agree with you though with on your views that carp should be just a part of the whole angling experience, not THE angling experience.

 

[dezza]

From weighing a few ounces Brummie, those fish were all over 20 lbs. Walker did catch a couple of smaller carp, but these were from a stocking which took place just after WW2 came to a close.

I once asked Walker why the fish in Redmire had such a high growth rate? He told me that never in his life had he seen a water with so much natural food in it, especially daphnia and bloodworms. At times, he said, "the daphnia blooms could be so thick, a carp had only to swim through these blooms with its mouth open to get fed!"

Some years ago I was involved in the acquisition of a 100 acre lake in the area known then as The Eastern Transvaal. We stocked the lake with rainbow and brown trout that did well. We also discovered that the lake contained carp - bloody huge ones.

One poor guy in in a float tube was "bumped" by one of these monsters. He came off the water terrified, telling us that the thing must have been more than a metre long and 1/2 a metre across.

One weekend I arrived and had the water to myself. To cut a long story short, I had, in addition to my fly tackle - a carp rod and quite a few cans of sweetcorn. I caught a couple of carp, the second one sending my scales which went up to 40lbs down with a bump. It was at least 50 lbs and was killed and taken to the local town and sold off.

I also hooked a whopper whilst fly fishing and eventually beached it. That was also about 50lbs I guess.

This water was also solid with bloodworms and daphnia. Often, trout we caught would be choking with the stuff. It also contained vast quatities of freshwater crabs, Carp eat those too.

Although the carp bred quite well there was always plenty of large mouth black bass and brown trout to prevent the carp from overpopulating the water.

But this took place a long time ago. Today the water is run by an exclusive syndicate which charge about R35,000 (£3000.00) for a weeks fishing.

 

[preston96]

From weighing a few ounces Brummie, those fish were all over 20 lbs. Walker did catch a couple of smaller carp, but these were from a stocking which took place just after WW2 came to a close.

I once asked Walker why the fish in Redmire had such a high growth rate? He told me that never in his life had he seen a water with so much natural food in it, especially daphnia and bloodworms. At times, he said, "the daphnia blooms could be so thick, a carp had only to swim through these blooms with its mouth open to get fed!"



If redmire had that extent of Dapnia and bloodworm Ron then maybe it was that.......but wasn't it called Redmire because of how red the water became in rain run off? i would have thought that wouldn't have been ideal for big dapnia blooms......pure suppostion on my part though, all the waters i have known have such blooms have been clearish.

 

[dezza]

Oh and yes, Redmire used to colour up on a regular basis. The mud had a reddish colour, hence the pool's nickname; its real name being Bernithan Court Lake which as we all know today can be found near the villages of Llangorran and Glewstone, just west of Ross-on-Wye.

I went there in 1978, just for a look see.

I am told that the carp will never grow as big as they did in the 40s and 50s. The richness of the water has been substantially reduced, due to certain farming practices in the area.

During the 60s, many people used to talk about the monster of Redmire. **** Walker claimed that it did once hold a fish that would go over 60lbs. Several photos were taken of this fish, but it was never landed.

In 1964, **** told me of the day in early June when he went to Redmire to do a pre-season reccie. When he got there the fish were spawning. He noticed a big carp in difficulties up in the shallow end. He donned waders, took his big carp landing net and a large brass spring balance out of his car. He waded in, netted the carp and carried it up to the dam where he released it. But before doing so he weighed the fish in the net at 58 lbs. The net weighed 2 1/2 lbs! It was a fully scaled common.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:11 ----------

By the way, if you have Google Earth, do a search on Bernithan Court Llangorran.

It shows and even names the famous pool quite clearly. Note the presence of vast amounts of algae in the water. At the shallow end there used to be a paddock where cattle and even horses used to gather, putting a lot of dung on the ground, thus fertilising the inlet water. Now there is a series of farm outbuildings.

In the early days nearly all the fields around the pool were pasture. Today as can be seen the fields are used for arable farming.

Perhaps the large fierce Shire Horses that kicked Maurice Ingham's car in have gone many years ago, but so has the inherent richness and fertility of Redmire that grew on such gigantic fish in those few incredible years.

 

[Philip]

Interesting Thread. Cant believe Rons on the Carp forum.

In reply to the original question an English carp for me is one born in the UK. The parents make no difference in my eyes.

As for Redmire, I don't think there is any way of being sure if the record Carp caught in the 50s and so on were the original stocking or offspring from it, I am sure the original Carp must have spawned many times so the record fish could have been Dutch but they could also have been "English" if you see what I mean.

Why did the Redmire fish grow so big ?

...I have mulled on this in the past. A 3 acre pool surrounded by trees, silts up and so on...its hardly a perfect environment on the face of it.
The abundance of natural food may have played a part however I recon the most important factor here, and I am sure Ron will correct me if I am mistaken, was that the fish were pretty much left alone after they were stocked. They were not angled for and there were no natural predators in the pool.

I am of the opinion that the first few years are critical in a Carps growth. If they can live unpressurised for that period they will grow big Frames/skeletons and have the potential to become big fish. The redmire fish were left pretty much alone for many years other than perhaps young kids fishing for Gudgeon.

I don't think anglers baits are needed to make fish big if they are in the right environment. This is proved by the extremely big fish caught abroad from waters that have rarely if ever seen an anglers bait. The possibility of the' fish eating fry is interesting. I am also of the opinion that Carp can grow big on a protein rich diet. Again looking to the continent I think one of the reasons they reach big sizes there without anglers baits is when they turn to Crayfish.

I also think the 76 drought which I understand almost dried up the pool had an impact in later years and prob played a part in regenerating the water and turning Chris Yates fish, which was already an old fish, from what appeared a stable 38 into a 51...

 

[Cakey]

hope you lot all belong to E.C.H.O. if not you have total disreguard for your fellow anglers ,your fishing is in your hands join NOW !

 

[Frothey]

And so would I.

Bolt rigs......

hope you lot all belong to E.C.H.O. if not you have total disreguard for your fellow anglers ,your fishing is in your hands join NOW !

Too true.

it would be good to net redmire, and stock it with some fresh fish - the redmire strain is long past it's best and could do with some fresh blood.

maybe some chanty fish would be good, with the naturals in there it would be good to see redmire do a 70

 

[quattro]

Going back to the thread title, am I right in thinking that the Crucian is the only truly indigenous British carp and that all the others have been introduced at some time in our history.

 

[Stealph Viper]

Cakey, you do make me chuckle ................