NOTE FROM GRAHAM
Due to the length of the following Forum posting I’ve presented it like this so that it can be read as a complete message rather than in shorter messages due to the forum accepting only a limited number of words per message.
If anyone else wishes to post a lengthy reply I offer them the same arrangement.
Forum posting from Steve Richardson:
Dear ALL
This is going to be a long one. Some who know me will read it and think “why did you bother Steve”…..I might just think that myself afterwards. There are no attacks of a personal nature towards anyone below…..just points worth considering if anyone takes the time to re-read the five pages of posts so far. Five pages where at hit number 88, the thread seemed to lose its momentum……and started it’s descent down the board. Political threads require fuel to keep them burning….wood is a good combustible fuel source….and so it is fitting that Mr. Wood comes along to re-ignite the fire…..the question is… “Patriot to the Principal or Puppet to the Muppet”?
Let me try to explain my thoughts with this post………apologies for the length but I was taught by a wordsmith of similar persuasion. Remember this; don’t moan at the end on how long it was….you didn’t have to read it. (Smiley face here)
Graham Marsden’s first post was…Quote:”Mark Wintle has laid down the pros and cons of stillwater barbel, so now, armed with some facts, what’s the verdict?
The question is this: Do you think barbel should be stocked into stillwaters. If not, why not?
The EA say they have barbel ready to be stocked but that no angling club with a river on their books wants them. Commercials, however, do.”
Mr. Wood posts the following…..Quote… “I will get back on track now!! Let me first say that we live in a democracy and therefore have freedom of speech, some would like to gag us by saying we do not have the right to comment on things or the way organisations are run if we don’t belong or subscribe to them. My answer to that “RUBISH” everyone has the right to form opinions we also have the right to voice them, how else do you have constructive debate?”
Dear Mr. Wood
You are quite correct that everyone is entitled to an opinion on a subject matter…However, it doesn’t stand as fact that everyone who enters into that discussion creates a ‘constructive debate’…..and that is seen to be the case here……Hence ‘one’ of the reasons it has ‘gone cold’ as you say. Sadly, and I am really sorry to have to say this to you, but your paragraph above is also rubbish.
Onwards…..
The subject matter hasn’t ‘drifted a little’….it was unintentionally contaminated by other issues being brought into the debate and then deliberately hijacked by Lee, who whenever he sees the initials ‘BS’ in a thread/post gets his bow and arrows out and has some target practice at one of his favourite pet hates. Don’t get me wrong, Lee is entitled to have his opinion on the BS…..It’d be more constructive, in my opinion, (which Mr. Wood states I am allowed) if he were to open up a thread on his worries concerning non elections of committee positions within the Barbel Society framework. This thread could then debate the issues with whomever wished to post. However, I am at a loss to see why anyone who is not a member of any group/organisation would want to discuss the committee framework of the said organisation other than to create dis-harmony amongst fellow anglers.
(It seems simple to me, either don’t subscribe to the group or subscribe and bring about democratic change within that group.)
Lee, in his first post on here, hijacked the threads topic and switched the focus towards the BS and what had occurred from a question posted on the BS web-site. I too, like Lee, was surprised by some of the comments on that thread……likewise, the fact that those who were against Ian Welch being invited to give a talk at the BS conference, due to his stance of stocking barbel into Stillwater’s, also said nothing in the build up to, and during, the said conference. In fact, they used a thread asking a simple question and used it as a vehicle to comment on the subject. Much better had they posted a new thread saying ‘Why was Ian Welch selected to give a talk’….even better would have been if they had done so before the conference. (Hindsight, a wonderful thing isn’t it….but they wouldn’t have used it, as they saw the opportunity to insert their own personal agenda into the topic…..cuckoo posting….cuckoo comrades.)
The one thing I do know is that when a political thread is started…and sometimes the poster doesn’t realise that his post is of a political nature until others come in to them and apply the twists…..is they deviate from the main theme and others with personal agendas manipulate the thread towards their objectives.
Steve Pope, myself, Lee and Mr. Woods, like many people who have been involved in angling politics, have said and conducted ourselves in issues, and in a manner, that we perhaps wish we hadn’t done with hindsight. Yes, it’s correct that I wasn’t too impressed with Steve airing his personal thoughts with regard to live baiting in the printed form…..my stance being taken up by the fact that I was then the General Secretary of the National Anguilla Club and I thought that it was against the principle of a ‘united angling stance’. I spoke at length with Steve about this and the conclusion to the issue was an amicable one between us both as officials of two different angling organisations. (I know for a fact that at that time, no other predator angling organisation spoke with Steve about his wording and thoughts regarding the issue of live baiting…..they may have done so since but the issue as far as I am concerned is sorted now.)
Cheeky Monkey…Jeff….pointed out in his first post that…Quote… “If anyone or any group has a problem therefore with ‘commercials’ buying barbel they can stop it tomorrow by putting their own hands in their pockets and buying more barbel from Calverton and put them in the rivers. And that goes for the Barbel Society too, dig deep and buy them your-bloody-selves.” Jeff reiterates this stance again in his follow up post.
In the above statement, Jeff points out a simple solution to the problem of eliminating farmed barbel stocks reaching the stillwater puddle debate. My initial thought was ‘wouldn’t that create a never ending barbel buying circle’? My point being that lets say I went to Calverton fish farm and bought all the barbel they had and then section 30’ed them into the Trent, Derwent and Dove. Wouldn’t Calverton then breed more barbel for sale?…thus putting me back into the position of buying more barbel! Jeff, the concept is given in good faith but would never work out in reality would it?…Unless I am dafter than I think I am. (If I have missed something here, then I am happy to be put right on this thought process.)
Lee, in his second posting, then cleverly snipes at Alan Pearce reminding us all that the BS are not members of the SAA…..and for the record it was the ‘hot potato’ that spurned the BS into not joining the SACG, way, way back in time now. I know, as I was there at the meeting sitting with Mike Burden when the wrong decision was made as to offer active support for the BS in this matter…..support may be too harsh a word but the message sent back to the BS was definitely none supportive.Keith Haynes then attacks the BS for being the organisation that stopped the abolition of the rivers close season…..well Keith, I am sorry to say that you are wrong on your thoughts. The group responsible for that is far wider than just the BS……Lee, I, Mr. Wood, the SAA member groups and many other anglers also voted for the close season to remain on our river systems. Did you write to the EA to offer your reason’s for it to be abolished?……see how easy it is to move the subject matter into another dimension, when you know how to ‘pick’ from the posts?
Jeff then asks a question of the BS finances……however, the information, if it is available, isn’t really likely to be posted on this thread due to it being outside of the organisations boundaries……and if it were, then I would be dis-pleased, as I don’t think that anyone outside of the BS should be privy to the balance sheet. Only my opinion by the way….not BS policy….I am just an individual BS member…a barbel angler financially supporting a barbel group…..a change of mind I grant you but still my prerogative in the scheme of things called life.
I bet a gold clock that the next poster would be Lee……and that clock ticks nicely still on my wrist…..and in that resulting post he then attacks the whole BS membership with his attempted wit…..I, and I expect many others, saw this post as wit-less in actual fact.
JP, John, saw where this thread was being taken then and posted saying so……we have all seen Lee’s manipulation of threads before….John was only saying what many were thinking I suspect….and we all know the general ending to them as well.
I then posted…..and I am not sure if Lee won his gold clock or whether I came in a tad late on the thread for him to get the strap as well….either way, I bet he smiled when he saw me post…..I certainly knew how the next post from Lee was going to be formatted. I posted not through cruising but due to a reminder mail from the FM site saying ‘read this article about stillwater barbel by Mark Wintle’. As a barbel angler, I am a barbel angler, aren’t I Lee? (Hellfire, you took me under your wing and expanded my experiences on Trent barbel fishing during an 18 month period, of which I am eternally grateful by the way.) And after reading Marks very nicely written article, I thought I should add my two penneth to the comments….having then read the thread, I only said what I thought was correct. I answered the question and gave some opinions on the posts to date and suggested we listen to what Lee had to say on the subject….as a seasoned river barbel angler.
Then, after Jeff and I put right a mis-understanding, we had the pleasure of Mr. Wood’s post…….well written, not a rant and constructively put forward. Obviously a lot of effort and thought went into that post as it read very well. There was only one point that I could take a stance against if I had a mind to and that was the bit about none freedom of speech……Quite obviously there is a formula for freedom of speech on the BS site, as the subject thread was never locked……never to my knowledge have I known a thread locked on that site…….something which has occurred on all other angling sites that I have visited…However, I could be wrong, many times I am. If so, then I apologise for that.
I never replied due to the concern that Mr. Wood would perhaps think I had seen an opportunity to post against him. Our history dictates that we hold no love of each other. …..and I didn’t want to drag the thread, and this site, down with what could have been a misconstrued posting.
Deck Monkey, Steve, added a good post, and I thank him for highlighting the plight of the freshwater eel. The reason he gives may well have some direction on eel stocks but there are a multitude of reasons why this is, before and after the event of natural reproduction…..interestingly, natural reproduction by Anguilla anguilla is something which has never been seen before I might add.
Stillwater barbel is an emotive subject…….you either agree they should be in stillwaters or you don’t……if you don’t then, as Steve says, you don’t fish there. Until scientific proof/papers are issued saying barbel are suited all round to life in stillwater’s then I am against the introduction of them into these waters. That they survive in stillwater’s is an obvious fact from many of the posters on here…..surely if there is enough oxygen in the water, then, as creatures that take oxygen in to their bodies via the water passing through their gills, they will live. If the oxygen levels deteriorate, then fish die whatever the species…..whether barbel would be the first I don’t know….eels don’t take kindly to the lack of it though……however, that’s not the issue here though, is it.?….. ‘surviving’ and being ‘environmentally sound’ are somewhat different aspects in life….I am sure we can all agree with that.
The postings from here got back into the actual subject mode….and then Lee made his next post…….nothing re: stillwater barbel there…..just BS bashing again.
Lee then posted again in reply to my post……and at last gives his thoughts re stillwater barbel…..exactly as I had hoped he would have done several pages back. I can’t argue with a word he says……the same straight arrow flight on this subject. However, only one arrow needed to be unleashed from the bow in this thread but several were set off to differing marks…..maybe that’s why the arrow holder is called a quiver.
Keith then comes on and posts his views on the BS stance on stillwater barbel and why the situation is as it is……not moving far…..truth me thinks and better than staying away, which he could have done. Whether you are happy with what was given as an answer is up to the individual….for myself, I decided that I would contact Pete Reading privately and discuss the whole history so far and see if I could offer any help if he was short on man power. No need for me to come on here and say that as it is BS work done within the BS membership…..whatever results gained or lost can be released to the wider audience when suitable, I would have thought. My thoughts on things haven’t changed, just the manner in which I go about pursuing them has.
Lee then posts again in reaction to Keith’s post….everything you expected to see from Lee in his BS bashing stance. He says at the end…..Quote “I don’t join the BS because of how its committee runs things. Plain and simple. I like to see committee people being elected. Plain and simple. I like to see detailed and explicit financial reports at AGM’s. Plain and simple. I like democracy within organisations. Plain and simple. I like to see new members being furnished with a copy of the constitution. Plain and simple.”
You can’t argue with that can you……so Lee never joined the BS on the above issues…..fair play to the man……wonder why so many others seemed to have done so….including Mr. Wood…..oh yes, their choice isn’t it.
Lee states that he followed the BS thread with trepidation……but states in his posted reply to Keith that “I had absolutely no knowledge of Mikes ill health.”….Couldn’t have followed the thread very well then Lee…..as it was stated quite early, second post in, on the situation of Mike’s health problems.
Another quote…..from Lee’s next post…..drum banging again……but for all fishing clubs this time….. “Thats why I support Open to All fishing via our nations fishing clubs. Without them, we would have very little by way of the massive choices we have not only in where too fish, but what we fish for. These clubs actually practise Swim Wild Swim Free.”
Question….. “What are you thoughts on the fishing clubs who stock barbel into their newly dug puddles….How many are there that practice this stocking policy nationally to your knowledge Lee”?I ask the question because you state your support of our nations fishing clubs….and many of them are acting against your current views on stillwater barbel stocking.
Quote….. “Open to all fishing. That’s our glorious past, our wonderful present, and the fantastic future awaiting all for the price of a club card. Great value and great democracy where all have the chance to air opinions and become involved.” I am not sure that anyone outside of these clubs would have their opinions entertained by those clubs committees…do you!
And so the circle comes full round…..we have Mr. Wood coming back into the fray saying “Well this thread has gone cold which is usual when questions asked of the BS. This subject is far too important for many to just let it slip of the board. It has also drifted off the subject a little after Mr Truscott’s post, would you bear with a little as I am going to digress myself for a short while.”
Well Ray……the above is wrong…the subject wasn’t about the BS initially…..It was about the pros and cons of stillwater barbel……it only deviated when Lee posted his first post….political hijacking it’s called.
All in all, your last post was much better written from your type cast……I immediately recognised your manner with words, your emotion and your method of writing……this post was made from true raw Ray Wood position…..nice to know that the strings aren’t always connected.
Question for you Mr. Wood…. “At the inaugural BS meeting, were there Proposers, Seconders and votes with each committee position made that day……I only ask as you say that individuals ‘took’ positions up…..if so, was the meeting minuted and recorded in true democratic style”…….Ooops, sorry, I’ll ask that question of the BS committee that I subscribe to at present…..I digress…it’s easily done.
By the way…..was pleased to read your thoughts on the stillwater barbel issue once again at the end of your interesting and informing post. Good words.
Bob…..nice to see you well and about……that’s the trouble Bob…….no one said that the BS speaks for all the barbel anglers……and of course they don’t…..that’s a myth surely. Do you agree that barbel in stillwaters is a good thing?…..for the barbel, not for the anglers fishing for them by the way.
This is the crux of the matter……there’s no doubt in my mind that anglers would enjoy catching barbel in stillwaters….that’s not the issue here, is it.?
Now then…..Jeff…..unanswered question still…..I shall ask the question but ‘in house’ and see if I get an answer, OK…..and still we have the initial topic contaminated with other side issues. (Not from you Jeff, before you think I am meaning you again.)
If I was asking the question of spending costs……the question would be… “Are the BS spending money on research into barbel in stillwaters……if so, then how much?The answer I would expect if asking from outside the BS membership would be two fold…… “Yes”…….and “That’s relative to the work being carried out”.
If you were to ask the Chairman or General Secretary of the National Anguilla Club how much the NAC spends on eel conservation issues and you were not a member of the club, I would expect them to either ignore you or inform you it was none of your business.
I own a house…well Erica and I do….does that allow me to ask others what they pay on their mortgages on an world wide internet site and expect an answer……does it hell…..I expect they’d tell me to mind my own business…….and rightly so.
So……I stand with JP on this……..can’t fathom it either……mind you, I am sure many others reading this thread will be thinking the same thing.
I may be back……I may not……I would hope that the topic gets back to where Graham initially started it.
All the above are only my thoughts…….no need to complicate matters with looking to put me right……what is printed above stands as read from my perspective. I am only interested from this point on in discussing the merits of stillwater barbel stocking policies on this thread.
If a thread appears on here about the BS and the working of that said organisation, then I may well integrate and exchange my thoughts with my fellow FM posters.
Yours With Respect….
Steve.
