True Silver Bream...?

[jcp01]

Is this fish a true silver bream or a roach/bream hybrid?

Large image

It is from the Coventry canal and is only the fourth of its kind I have ever caught there amongst a lot of pure bred roach and Bronze bream. I have only had two fish that were clearly roach/bream hybrids from the stretch so hybrids are not at all commonplace and they looked nothing like this fish.

It'll be a new PB if it is...

 

[Peter Jacobs]

It looks pretty authentic to me, but then I'm no expert on Silver Bream - Mark Wintle is your man for those.

 

[Stealph Viper]

I thought that Silver Bream had a lot bigger eye than the usual common Bream, i am in no way an expert, but, that eye doesn't look over sized for the fish.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

I think this is the record Silver Bream from last year.

Google Image Result for http://www.fisheries.co.uk/news/news/images/2009recordsilverbream400.jpg

 

[geoffmaynard]

I'm with Stealth. It seems to be too small an eye and the wrong shape body. A bit like me, I'm told. I think it's a small common bream / roach hybrid

 

[Dave Burr]

I reckon 6oz 5drms

Oh hang on, wrong post

The trouble with silver bream and roach/bream hybrids is that it is usually quite impossible to do an identification without counting lateral line scales and fin rays. Big roach have been claimed in the past that have clearly been hybrids.

To my eye it does look as though there is a bit of roach in there but that is just an opinion. I can state though that it is definitely not a tench - does that help?

 

[jcp01]

I can state though that it is definitely not a tench - does that help?

Yes, but not much, thanks Dave.

I have a tench/carp hybrid up next...

 

[S-Kippy]

Well that is certainly a rum un. My initial reaction was hybrid but looking closely I''m not so sure.Its quite a good picture so I tried scale count which was inconclusive though several counts put it possibly in the silver range.The picture wasn't quite clear enough for an anal fin ray count but the anal fin does look short compared to a common bream. The head shape and eye doesn't look quite silver bream to me but it is a small fish and they often do have a different physical look/shape to larger specimens.Its deep but not very humpy backed.

Looking at it as a whole though it has a rather "delicate" look to it that to me says silver bream. Definately not a tench and in my experience hybrids are usually quite obvious whereas this one isn't. Trouble is its been a very long time since I caught a true silver and I'm no expert.Taking all this into account I'm now thinking silver bream. I believe most decent anglers are very good on fish id and Rufus' reaction is clearly "silver"...so I'm minded to go with along with that.

Lovely shot though and a very pretty fish whatever it is.

Skippy.

 

[Steve Spiller]

Looks roachy to me Rufus.

The eye, anal fin and fin colours don't look right?

Where's Mr Wintle or Nellist when you need them?

 

[Mark Wintle]

My inclination on this fish is that it's a roach/bream hybrid but it's certainly hard to tell.

 

[andy nellist]

It's not a silver bream. The eye is far too small and the pelvic and pectoral fins are the wrong colour (should be pinkish).

 

[jcp01]

These canal fish always do look a little roachy, at first, but the illusion soon drops. They are very, very silvery, brilliant as compared to the very common skimmers but even brighter than roach, in fact the only equivalent I can think of is that of chromium plating, something that photos really don't convey very well.

I would have expected to have caught a few much larger specimens if they were hybrids but I have only caught the four so far and all have been more or less this size.

Here's two more ~

Picasa Web Albums - jeff

http://picasaweb.google.com/rankidler/IdlerSQuest#5302697784114348546

I'm sure you can see that these fish are identical. All were caught in Spring, none have appeared at any other time of year...

---------- Post added at 23:00 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------

Andy, the fins actually are pinkish but the photos have made them a little redder than they are. The fins are very transparent in fact

 

[Stealph Viper]

I think if you compare the picture you took and this picture, then, for me the Tail of the fish is a different shape and the eye is a lot bigger.

Silver Bream - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Graham Whatmore]

A lot of people just look up on the web and see what a real one looks like then post their opinion without any real knowledge of what they look like, most of them have probably never seen a real silver bream in their life and even if they had they probably wouldn't know what it was.

In this case as with all the other "is it a hybrid or not" threads on here opinion (be it educated opinion or not) is based on a photograph and nothing else and the only definitve conclusion would come from a scale DNA test. Having said that if Andy or Mark make a judgement I would go along with them because they know what they are talking about but would they put their houses on it based on a photo? Nah! not on your nelly.

To me its a skimmer because I don't study these things and therefore have no real knowledge to base a decision on, to a match angler its another 6oz in the net, to your average pleasure angler its a shiny little bream and he doesn't even question its parentage.

 

[jcp01]

I think if you compare the picture you took and this picture, then, for me the Tail of the fish is a different shape and the eye is a lot bigger.

Silver Bream - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But if you compare the picture of the dubious 'comparative' silver bream in the main body of the Wiki article you link to with its extremely ragged fins and the far larger fish in the right corner, well, then there's proper confusion for you!

Perhaps someone with some good and reliable comparative shots of bream, silver bream and hybrids should edit that article and get shot of that awful picture, a. Because it is unreliable and confusing and, b. Not a good advert for fish care because any non angler would jump to the conclusion that that was unacceptable net damage to the fins even though it is the just kind of fin damage that you see on farmed bass.

 

[andreagrispi]

Definately a roach/bream hybrid.

A silver would have a bigger eye and orange type fin colouration. Once you catch a proper silver you will be able to see the difference.

 

[andy nellist]

The one thing you can say with certainty is that it is not a Silver Bream and i doubt it had any Silver Bream ancestry given its small eye.

Any anoraks out there that desperately want to know what Silver Bream hybrids look like should get a copy of "Morpological recognition of artificial F1 hybrids between three common European cyprinid species: Rutilius ruitilus, Blicca bjoerkna and Abramis Bramis" published in 2008.

The researchers bred hybrids of Roach, Silver Bream and Bream so they could see what they looked like. It's a good read if like me you are intereted in such things.

 

[jcp01]

I have to say at this point just in case anyone thought I was labouring the issue, that I have no absolutely no interest in making this fish what it is not!

It is what it is, of course. My interest lies in clarification.