For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter

Peter Jacobs

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It seems that I am not the only one To be concerned over the wording and the structure of the petition. Take a look at the Angling Trust response where they have the same concerns and are apparently not supporting it.

Mind you there are some on here who will now sign just to object to the Trust's position.
 

thecrow

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Contraception and neutering will never happen, development and testing will take years and immense finances ( from somewhere). The problems to overcome are enormous, here's a short section from a paper on badgers to give you an idea. Bearing in mind badgers have had millions upon millions of £££s chucked at the problem over the years.

Developing an effective oral contraceptive has also proved difficult, and testing the contraceptive without distressing the badgers by taking blood samples to verify whether they are pregnant has led to some innovative ideas of measuring the hormone progesterone in other bodily fluids, that can predict pregnancy with surprising accuracy.

If these drugs are successfully developed, how can they be introduced to the wild without other animals eating them? Containers designed to be opened by badgers have been developed, but would they stand up to an inquisitive squirrel? What about a child? That’s not to mention any potential environmental impact from releasing these drugs into a wild badger population.


Are Badgers not a protected animal? thousands have been culled without much of a whimper from the public. 83% of which when tested were found to be TB free.

Trapping of males and neutering would still be an option would it not?
 
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thecrow

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It seems that I am not the only one To be concerned over the wording and the structure of the petition. Take a look at the Angling Trust response where they have the same concerns and are apparently not supporting it.


The trust have sat on the fence for so long over the otter problem they now have bums full of splinters, I haven't seen their response but whatever it is it couldn't have anything to do with not upsetting their paymasters who were involved in the reintroductions could it.

I really don't understand some anglers, the amount of wording to fully explain the petition is not allowed, what is it in the wording and structure that you are unhappy about?
 

Peter Jacobs

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Then read the Angling Trust response.
It almost mirrors my earlier comments regarding the lack of specificity when noting that we already have non lethal methods at our disposal.

I have asked the formers of the petition to describe in detail their proposals but they have not replied.
In fact the Trust asked the same questions and also got no answers.
 
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Philip

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I think its after the horse has bolted anyway.

I would have thought a petition to stop FURTHER introductions of Otters would make more sense. ...+ it avoids tip toeing round minefield subjects such as trapping/snaring/or knocking Mr Furry face on the bonce.
 

The bad one

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Philip there hasn't been any significant releases since 2000.

Graham re rehabilitate otters and man's intervention - most otters that are rehabilitate are due to man's doing that placed them in the rehab ward in the first place.
Cubs being orphaned by the mother being killed in road accidents with cars. 70% of the 1000 + otters autopsied by the Vincent Wildlife Trust and Exeter Uni were found to have died via road accidents
Death of the mother through accumulated toxins in their food chain. Toxins put there by man. Mothers getting drown by traps put there by man. Liver fluke contracted from dogs kept as pets by man. So yes man is to blame for it but not as you are saying.

Again Graham are you really flying that myth that clandestine otter breeding has gone on on any scale? Just think about what it would take to breed otters? It took the Otter Trusts 18 years to understand how to breed otters and breed 117 young otters. And some hairy arsed individual was able to breed them willy nilly without anybody knowing? Nope never happened, nor has any of the myth builders ever produced one shred of evidence to prove that has happened. It's a MYTH!

Here's something for those who may be considering adding their name to this misguided petition

http://www.anglingtrust.net/core/co...?id=1616&filetitle=Otters+the+facts+v9+Format
 

The bad one

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Can I clear up some misconceptions about trapping otters and moving them. To trap any otters “legally” you have to be licensed by DEFRA. To gain that licence you have to be a fit and proper person and do a one day course, which is done in Scotland and there was in October only one person licensed by DEFRA to be a trainer and he's based in Scotland and runs the courses.

Again of October last year there was only 5 people nationally licensed to trap otters in the UK, 3 of which are members of my club (no I'm not one of them) all 3 are mates of mine and why I know so much about the system, as it is them who have told me how it works. To trap them it must only be done on a otter fenced water to remove them from within the fence. You can not set a trap anywhere else in the wild to capture an otter.
Once caught in the authorised DEFRA trap within the fencing, you must remove the otter in the trap to outside the fenced water, open the trap and let it go back into the wild.
You can not remove any otter any further than just outside the fenced off water, to do so you commit an offence under the licence conditions and the Wildlife and Countryside Act.

So any talk of removing a so-called problem otter legally is wrong and is not allowed under the licensing conditions.
 

108831

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It looks to me that Cockneybob opened this thread to bring this petition into our domain and in that he has achieved that,whatever happens to this petition it is unlikely much will change,but it would be nice for a government funded survey to take place.

Phil,you stated that few reintroductions have taken place in recent times,but I have heard of several Kitts being recovered after the raising females have been killed on our roads,then fed until able to be released,to me this isn't natural(as is being hit by a car)and is similar to reintroduction, its a hard call to make...
 

Molehill

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Big fingers on little tablet missed the spot and gave you a "thanks"!

The time and effort that goes into rearing most orphaned creatures seems a complete waste to me in that it achieves little. But if the creature is somewhat endangered at the time then there is some justification in attempting to rear and return it to the wild.
 

mikench

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Hand rearing any animal is a two way street and can be therapeutic to both the animal and the human! I did it years ago with a robin chick which wasn't that far from fledging and just needed a little help! I did it again with a baby duck but on this occasion I retrieved it from the garden when satisfied it was alone and took it to a local pond to be adopted by ducks!

In my opinion man owes his fellow mammals big time!
 

Molehill

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We have certainly done our fair share of "saving" creatures, either young and deserted or injured, I think the most recent were a bullfinch and hedgehog.

But I also believe that we individuals get more out of it than we actually achieve, great feelgood factor for us, but not sure it made any difference in the big wide world.
When a lot of time and money go into saving a fox cub or pigeon with a broken wing I would much prefer the money to have been spent on improving habitat etc.
But I'm getting off thread.
 

Jim Crosskey 2

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Is there a bit of an elephant in the room here (keeping the otter company...)

That being that this has pretty much everything to do with the interests of people who catch specimen sized barbel, and less to do with a genuine concern about nature? Or even the interests of most anglers.

I've raised this as an idea before on threads about otters, but could it be possible that the generally increasing size of barbel in small rivers like the kennet, Bristol avon, ouse... fish growing to those sizes were unnatural to begin with? A situation greatly enhanced by the population crash decades earlier of the predator that would have kept those stocks healthier (and more numerous)?

The petition is called for by an angler with a great association with one species. Even more than that, the loudest voice in trying to bring attention to the decline of one species. I completely understand why he's going about that, but I'm not sure how well the pursuit of specimen sized barbel really represents anglers nationwide? Many of us don't even fish for this species.

I don't remember any voices of concern being raised as the traveller and co got caught again and again and hit the front pages of the angling press... no voices of concern to suggest that without smaller fish present, the population wouldn't last forever. Seems the biggest problem barbel have is getting jiggy. Fish recruitment, i.e. successful breeding and clear multi generational populations of fish - that's the secret to a healthy population. How many 2lb fish are getting caught, you should have to fight through several to get to your 12lb fish, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case on any river in the country with the exception of the wye, severn and maybe trent (though Calverton has a lot to play in to that population).

We shouldn't be looking at otters, in my opinion. We should be looking at the habitat of the rivers in question, which are silty, low flowing, algal-blooming, chemically altered .... the list goes on. Is there anything we can do to change the state of them? (I would argue in the case of the Kennett and B. Avon, they're probably ruined beyond hope).

The fact that an otter can decimate the population of barbel in a river in a year or two suggests to me that the population of barbel was already hanging by a thread to begin with. Our interference with the habitat is what's crashed the barbel population, the otters have just accelerated the deaths of old fish by a year or two.

We also need to be mindful of how we're perceived by the general public. Will they care that the largest specimens of a particular species have been eaten? Likely not. They might get more interested in this if the species in question was "close to extinction"... which the barbel quite clearly isn't!

Let me just close this by saying, I love catching barbel! Truly, one of my favourite fish. However, they're really not the be all and end all, and if my angling ever got to the point where I was only bothered about one species - and would happily kill otters to enhance my chances (and I know, the petition says non-lethal, but these threads always bring out those that would advocate shooting them) - then I will give my tackle away and get a new hobby!
 

rayner

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Contraception after trapping and releasing could be an option as could neutering of trapped males.

All good ideas. The petition would carry a little more strength if options were to be shown.
As I said earlier, it's a non starter. Even if the signatures on the petition reach the required number doesn't automatically get it to be heard in the House of Commons.
A well thought out explanation of the reason for the petition may help, being nice fluffy animals in the majority of peoples eyes makes it difficult.
To reduce the numbers of an indigenous animal so a few anglers can catch a few fish, that's all anglers. We are still only a few, it puts our fraternity in a bad light.
OK they have been introduced but they still belong.
We are finding it impossible to get rid of Cormorants, like it or not Otters are here to stay.
 

The bad one

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Jim you comment is bang on the money mate!

I came across the following last night whilst following the debate elsewhere which was strange and curious and made me think that the petition and the words Non-lethal Measures is perhaps a Trojan horse for culling? Here’s what the originator stated on Steve Pope’s FB page to this question -

"Garath XXXXX Steve Pope I have signed but why take none lethal removal off the table?"

“Lawrence Breakspear Because we wont get across the front door with a cull strategy Gareth....lets get in front of these people first...”
No doubt the spin Doctors will attempt to dismiss it as not as it suggests :rolleyes:
 

thecrow

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Having read it now it seems to me that the trust are still sitting on the fence on this issue, trapping? as Phil has said one place for licence training that is in Scotland, very few who are licenced to do the trapping. A fishery has to go through otters killing their stock before an otter can be trapped big help that is not. Even if one is trapped what then move it and the problem somewhere else? They have no idea how this petition would be received and to say what they have about how it would be treated by parliament is imo arrogant in the extreme.

Its yet another instance where the trust ever mindful of their paymasters don't want to rock the boat, in fact I believe that even if a million anglers signed they would still not back the petition, imo they are through their fence sitting a disgrace.

Don't understand the term "none lethal"? they don't want to imo and I hope that their stance costs them members but if it does but hey they could always offer cut price membership on the quiet again couldn't they?

Or are they not backing it because they have had their nose put out of joint by some anglers daring to try to achieve something without them being involved?
 

Peter Jacobs

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Or are they not backing it because they have had their nose put out of joint by some anglers daring to try to achieve something without them being involved? __________________

Alternatively, given that this is a topic that has been discussed between the Barbel Society and the ATr it is far more likely that the Barbel society have just jumped the gun on this occasion driven on by the enthusiasm of one past so called celebrity angler?

So far, no one in the BS has been able to clarify their intentions under the banner term of "non lethal" other than to say . . . "just sign it and let's get the ball rolling" . . . . . .

Well, until and unless they can particularise exactly what they are campaigning for then I personally won't put my name to the petition ad there are some "non lethal" methods that I would not support.
 

thecrow

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it is far more likely that the Barbel society have just jumped the gun on this occasion driven on by the enthusiasm of one past so called celebrity angler?


And your proof that "it is far more likely" is? or as with most things in angling is that just your opinion?

Enthusiasm? I see nothing wrong with being enthusiastic about trying to do something about what one believes in, on the other hand the trust just dare not be enthusiastic as their paymasters were involved in the reintroductions and if some things I read are true still are and I have no reason or proof that they are not true.
 
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