Passion For… Clean Rivers

[no-one in particular]

I understand everyone's misgivings, doubts and trust, I have them as well, but weighing up the needs of this country and pollution in this century I have no faith in the other two parties to deliver; they have abjectly failed and I cannot see that changing. They are weighed down in their 20th century ideologies to be fit for purpose in our future. I am just weighing it all up and I am prepared to try something radical as no one has anything better to offer, no solutions that I think will work. The young will decide what happens and they are going to be far more green than my generation and the responsibility will be theirs so, I can see the change happening and I wont be here to see it but I am not sorry for it.

 

[Molehill]

BBC News - Pollution: 'This is my coffin, this is why I swim with it'

'This is my coffin, this is why I swim with it'

Wild swimmer Angela Jones says she hopes her specially designed coffin will catch attention.

www.bbc.co.uk

I see that river wye pollution levels made national news this week, brought to the public's attention by a lady wild swimmer who has been swimming the river for 35 years, and monitoring it.
It is an actual swimmer, who many anglers look upon as "nuisance river users" or even the enemy, that has made the headlines. Not anglers protesting.
As I said above, I think angling organisations should be engaging with all river users and those who make a living from the river, thinking we are the only ones that care about it and standing alone only weakens the cause.

 

[mikench]

I saw that too and was impressed by the lady. You have my agreement.

 

[steve2]

I picked up on this a few days ago but now it is just yesterdays news and as already been forgotten about. With the amount of rain we are have pollution will continue to increase.
There is a video online showing just what as been washed into rivers and caught up in the riverside trees following recent floods. It is not good viewing for those of us who fish rivers. Much of it was released from overflowing sewers.

 

[John Bailey]

Passion for Clean Rivers… The Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill​

I’ve been away for a while and haven’t seen the Wye for exactly a week. The blistering weather collapsed, and slowly salmon appeared to stop dying and barbel began to show once more. It would suddenly seem that for some the phosphate issue had gone away, and life had gone back to a blissful norm. Of course, that is complete nonsense (I’d like to use a stronger word), and campaigners like Stuart Smith and Stephen Townley know the battle for the Wye and tributaries has just begun. Indeed, if the pressure to find sensible ways of disposing of chicken manure is not found, and not found soon, we really can kiss England’s most iconic river farewell, as a fishery at least. Let us make that clear to those who would sleep at their post now Autumn beckons.

And I can’t help but notice another threat beginning to rumble, this time one that could see all of us using our rods to grow beans. A week ago in the Sunday Times, columnist Rod Liddle drew attention to the Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill waffling its way through the House of Lords. I like Rod Liddle for his spiky demolition of endless shibboleths, but his 1st August piece made me squirm. I’ll quote, albeit randomly…

“That animals, including fish, are actually sentient is beyond any reasonable doubt. Only our human arrogance prevents us from acknowledging this.”

“Animals feel pain and have a right to enjoy life but they (opponents of the Bill) wish to continue in the old biblical tradition of exploiting, killing, torturing and for fun because animals are under our dominion and nothing else matters.”

“Fifty years from now we will look back on our treatment of animals – which veers from between the sickly sentimental and the violently callous – and be appalled at our moral standards.”

Now, oldies will remember that this type of threat is not exactly new, but I would argue that the world view on everything has changed since then, and is changing on a daily basis. There is barely a single traditional belief or custom that is not being challenged as the culture wars, or whatever you want to call them, gather pace. What makes the Bill especially meaningful for us is that No.10 is a meeting place for the Westminster Greens who are behind this bill. Carrie Johnson, the Goldsmith brothers, and even Stanley Johnson are amongst those who would see huge changes brought about in the way our environment is managed.

Now, a lot of what this gang say we would agree with. Of course, we want to see insects back and our birdlife recover. Of course, we want to see cows, sheep and chickens too all treated humanely, but in these times of constant self-scrutiny, this Bill could cause problems. There are 17 or 18 million chickens polluting the Wye, and we want to see them treated better and for that ill treatment to stop. There are those who would like to see the fish in the Wye treated differently too, and do not see us as guardians of the river in the way we like to see ourselves.

These are tricky times, and we need to pull together, and not to think that the odd pull from a barbel or salmon means all is well with our world.

 

[steve2]

I have been saying for years that angling for sport in this country will end just like bear baiting, cock fighting and more recent fox hunting. We like to view angling is above all these but that is not how ours see us and the fact that we don't eat what we catch will be seen as a reason to stop doing it.

 

[Keith M]

Fish feel pain??? according to scientists who have studied it in detail; they don’t.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...ver_antiangling_report&utm_content=2021-03-11

 

[Molehill]

If the Animal Sentience bill finds it's way onto the books in current form it has the potential to do massive damage to all that many country sporting people hold dear. And a lot more besides.
These things (laws) have a habit of being taken over and used by extremists for their causes and moderation or common sense are not in their vocabulary.
From angling perspective it would not be long before we are challenged on many fronts, whittling away at us through the courts and media. A livebait on a hook, no chance, and most of us wouldn't worry. A worm, a slug, a maggot, anything alive being impaled and slowly drowned in water will be consigned to history. Keepnets - you can forget them - and so it will continue with unrelenting attacks.
Angling will not be top of the list but sooner or later it will be on the agenda, slowly but surely the righteous will pick away at it.

 

[xenon]

The logical conclusion of animal sentience being accepted is the outlawing of any kind of meat for sale. Cannot see that happening.

 

[Keith M]

The logical conclusion of animal sentience being accepted is the outlawing of any kind of meat for sale. Cannot see that happening.

Then we wouldn't be able to keep pets like Dogs and Cats (which eat meat) if we couldn’t buy any meat; so what should we do; just kill them all? (Oops! We can’t kill animals or look after them any more, I forgot )

Keith

 

[steve2]

It will be far easier to control angling for sport than eating meat for food. Anyway if today's report on global warming and climate change come true not catching fish is the least of our problems.

 

[tigger]

Deleted by myself

 

[no-one in particular]

No one knows what's in the sentience bill yet, least of all Rod Liddle, he is just a journo and he doesn't represent anyone but himself. It may come to a ban on fishing or it may not, it is all speculation at this stage and it has yet to be passed through Parliament. Nothing wrong with speculation but we are sentience anglers who don't brook any cruelty to fish we catch or any other animal! There is a lot of cruelty going on in many spheres of animal husbandry and elsewhere and I think this bill is aimed at that more than angling but we will have to see.
As to the Green Party who many of us broadly agree with many of their aims as John Bailey admits although they may not know it, they have no policy of banning angling at present, that may change but it it wouldn't happen for a very long time if at all. They have a lot of designs on the commercial fishing sector not all of which I agree with nor do I think they could maintain but they have virtually nothing to say about angling.

 

[John Aston]

It's Rod Liddle and although I frequently disagree with him he is anything but 'just' a journalist ,whatever that means . Ex BBC producer, and a man of trenchant, but well informed views which he expresses superbly in the Spectator . He has an articulate and persuasive voice, and I am sure articulates many people's view. if not always mine .

As I understand it , the Bill will require animal welfare to be considered when other new legislation is being introduced . Like the very widespread misunderstanding about hate crime (it's an aggravating factor in the commission of other crimes , not a crime in itself ) I suspect the Bill will not have as profound effect as might at first be feared . But we must wait and see .

As far as angling is concerned the unpalatable bottom line is that we get our kicks from sticking hooks in fish . We might delude ourselves that we never cause harm but we all harm fish at some point in our careers - by accident or design . Livebaiting anyone ? Try defending that to a young millennial who is rightly concerned about the environment . Or try putting the case for overstocking carp into muddy ponds incapable of supporting that biomass ... We have a lot of PR work to do if our sport is to be sustainable .

 

[no-one in particular]

bb

It's Rod Liddle and although I frequently disagree with him he is anything but 'just' a journalist ,whatever that means . Ex BBC producer, and a man of trenchant, but well informed views which he expresses superbly in the Spectator . He has an articulate and persuasive voice, and I am sure articulates many people's view. if not always mine .

As I understand it , the Bill will require animal welfare to be considered when other new legislation is being introduced . Like the very widespread misunderstanding about hate crime (it's an aggravating factor in the commission of other crimes , not a crime in itself ) I suspect the Bill will not have as profound effect as might at first be feared . But we must wait and see .

As far as angling is concerned the unpalatable bottom line is that we get our kicks from sticking hooks in fish . We might delude ourselves that we never cause harm but we all harm fish at some point in our careers - by accident or design . Livebaiting anyone ? Try defending that to a young millennial who is rightly concerned about the environment . Or try putting the case for overstocking carp into muddy ponds incapable of supporting that biomass ... We have a lot of PR work to do if our sport is to be sustainable .

I have corrected, thanks, I read his articles as well, they are very entertaining but my point was he is still just a journalist when he writes in the Times, he doesn't represent anyone but himself and his own views, they are just his opinions and his as quoted by John Bailey “That animals, including fish, are actually sentient is beyond any reasonable doubt. Only our human arrogance prevents us from acknowledging this.”
Since when has he become the arbiter of which animals (including fish) are sentient and what is beyond doubt! I haven't read this article but he will not be my guide in these matters. If others want to follow him that's fine but to me he is just another over opiniated well paid journo.

 

[John Aston]

Journalists are paid to have opinions , and in doing so enable us to help us with our own views. Sadly it has become fashionable to sneer at journalism ,and mainstream media in general and instead to rely on the wacky world of unregulated social media . I enjoy reading and benefit from weIl written , persuasively argued pieces , regardless of whether I am in agreement . One of many prices we pay for the age of information is that some of us inhabit an echo chamber of confirmation bias - dissenting opinions actually help us to form our own.

 

[no-one in particular]

Journalists are paid to have opinions , and in doing so enable us to help us with our own views. Sadly it has become fashionable to sneer at journalism ,and mainstream media in general and instead to rely on the wacky world of unregulated social media . I enjoy reading and benefit from weIl written , persuasively argued pieces , regardless of whether I am in agreement . One of many prices we pay for the age of information is that some of us inhabit an echo chamber of confirmation bias - dissenting opinions actually help us to form our own.

Journalists are trained and paid to report the news. Sadly many of them then think they are our great thinkers and philosophers so they get sneered at.

 

[steve2]

As far as angling is concerned the unpalatable bottom line is that we get our kicks from sticking hooks in fish . We might delude ourselves that we never cause harm but we all harm fish at some point in our careers - by accident or design . Livebaiting anyone ? Try defending that to a young millennial who is rightly concerned about the environment . Or try putting the case for overstocking carp into muddy ponds incapable of supporting that biomass ... We have a lot of PR work to do if our sport is to be sustainable .

Apart from being a money earner there is no reason for over stocked fisheries where the fish rely on anglers for food. It as always surprised me that the RSPCA haven't already looked into it. We have already stopped animals performing in the circus for our enjoyment so why not fish.

You only have to look to see just how things can and have changed regarding animal welfare not just our lifetime but in the last few years. It only takes one person to take the stand against these overstocked fisheries and it can start to snowball.

 

[no-one in particular]

As far as angling is concerned the unpalatable bottom line is that we get our kicks from sticking hooks in fish . We might delude ourselves that we never cause harm but we all harm fish at some point in our careers - by accident or design . Livebaiting anyone ? Try defending that to a young millennial who is rightly concerned about the environment . Or try putting the case for overstocking carp into muddy ponds incapable of supporting that biomass ... We have a lot of PR work to do if our sport is to be sustainable .

I agree with you on that, no matter how we butter it up we will have difficulty defending our case if and when it comes to it. But it wont necessarily come to it, all parties are reluctant to go the full hog and ban it including even the Green Party who classify it as a blood sport, wrongly in my opinion but, why don't they declare they want to ban it outright if that is what they think! We know why, too many votes in it for all of them and I think that will be the case going forward. If they or any party bring in measures to practice what we do with more care and thought to the fish which could happen with this sentience thing if it gets passed, maybe that wont be all a bad thing, re the over stocking of fish as you say.
I think there are so many ways all this could swing, its still all speculation but, maybe we all could preempt and forestall some of it. But who is going to do it or make us?

 

[John Aston]

Journalists are trained and paid to report the news. Sadly many of them then think they are our great thinkers and philosophers so they get sneered at.

Journalism embraces far more than mere reportage. There are many wonderfully inciteful examples of journalists who transcend mere reportage , from Alastair Cook to Max Hastings via Hemingway to current writers like David Aaronovich . Just look at the op ed pieces in any decent newspaper - why sneer ? Can you do better ? Isn't the free expression of opinion a fundamental part of a democracy ?