BIG ROACH a book by Mark Wintle

[no-one in particular]

I do not doubt the experts opinion although I sould like to know if they either caught or examined the 'big fish' reported to have come out of the Beult or if they were simply expressing an opinion at some time perhaps a considerable time after the captures.

I have as yet not seen a copy of John Bailey's book Roach the gentle giants in what must be over twenty years. I lent it to one of my friends that long ago (so be warned when lending books...hehehe) although I have already ordered another copy albeit secondhand, I shall have a borrowed copy sometime Sunday which I shall quickly read through. I have no doubts of on Mark Wintle's accuracy as to the date of the publication. Surely though all that means is that Roach have simply not been a major target of anglers between the two publications and John Bailey's book would have been produced around the time of the move to Barbel, Carp and Pike by many specimen hunters, which immediately proceeded the real beginning of the great Carp interest and the advent of the commercials.


Carp had themselves moved briefly to a quieter place during the time of the Bream and Roach interest, Tench have always been a fish less to the fore as a popular specimen hunters target. Here please allow me to define my use of the term popular specimen hunter here I mean general anglers who will target a particular species because the angling press and famous anglers make it a popular species. True or dedicated specimen hunters are a completely different type of angler no better nor any worse than any angler although extremely dedicated possibly to the point of being fanatical in pursuit of their quarry and even to this day unbelieveably secretive.

Some specimen hunters have over the years wanted to promote their personal interests to the general angler and one way they tried to do this was by creating a single species club or association which naturally not all specimen hunters ever even considered joining.

I may have this wrong Toadie but, I believe a survey was done a while back by the Angling Times to see what the most popular fish was. To everyones surprise I think it was Tench that came first followed by roach. Everyone was expecting carp so, quite a result. I believe this was done a couple of years ago but, I might be wrong as cannot remember it that well so, I might be wrong.

 

[peter crabtree]

You are right Mark.Last Angling times survey found tench were fave fish..

 

[no-one in particular]

You are right Mark.Last Angling times survey found tench were fave fish..

Thanks Peter--thought I was right. Just goes to show our impressions of whats happening in angling can sometimes be wrong.

 

[watatoad]

I stand corrected, although I still personally think Tench being the most popular fish in a survey with those who replied to the survey, the majority actually still fish mainly for Carp with some switching to Pike in the Winter.

Just looking at the number of specialist Carp angling magazines, internet sites and even tackle shops that are supported by the Carp anglers, must surely give an indication of the size of the Carp support and popularity. I can't think of any other species that is capable of supporting that number of magazines, which makes me wonder of the accuracy of such a survey.

 

[Mark Wintle]

'Favourite' is a strange subject to survey. What you prefer ie your favourite, and what you actually do can be different things that are governed by opportunity and availability. This might explain why people list tench as a favourite yet because carp are much easier to find in abundance compared to tench so the survey result is skewed. Similarly I think many anglers still aspire to catch big roach but find it difficult to do, and take an easier option.

 

[cg74]

I stand corrected, although I still personally think Tench being the most popular fish in a survey with those who replied to the survey, the majority actually still fish mainly for Carp with some switching to Pike in the Winter.

Just looking at the number of specialist Carp angling magazines, internet sites and even tackle shops that are supported by the Carp anglers, must surely give an indication of the size of the Carp support and popularity. I can't think of any other species that is capable of supporting that number of magazines, which makes me wonder of the accuracy of such a survey.

Wholly agree.

---------- Post added at 08:49 ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 ----------

'Favourite' is a strange subject to survey. What you prefer ie your favourite, and what you actually do can be different things that are governed by opportunity and availability. This might explain why people list tench as a favourite yet because carp are much easier to find in abundance compared to tench so the survey result is skewed. Similarly I think many anglers still aspire to catch big roach but find it difficult to do, and take an easier option.

I agree, well to a degree but are tench so hard to find?
The underlined sentense though, sure is a fine piece of pontification as to the difficulty of your 'favoured' species.

An example of what I mean:
30 acre gravel pit stocked with the usual (but in low numbers) tench, bream, perch, pike and the two target species; carp and roach.
30 carp weighing between 25 and 40lbs, average weight 30lbs, total biomass = 900lb.
So to keep things on a level playing field, the roach biomass is the same-900lb, made up of 450 roach, weighing between 1.5 and 3lb, averaging 2lbs.

So which fish would be hardest to target, in terms of total weight on the bank, I'd reckon on it being the carp.

You could argue that if the fish numbers were the same, not the biomass, then roach would be the tougher quarry but on that basis, imagine targetting 30 ruffe or even harder 30 sticklebacks.........

 

[darrengeorge]

But wouldn't it be boring if fishing was just a numbers game. Like a maths exam in a field!

 

[barbelboi]

Wholly agree.

---------- Post added at 08:49 ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 ----------



I agree, well to a degree but are tench so hard to find?
The underlined sentense though, sure is a fine piece of pontification as to the difficulty of your 'favoured' species.

An example of what I mean:
30 acre gravel pit stocked with the usual (but in low numbers) tench, bream, perch, pike and the two target species; carp and roach.
30 carp weighing between 25 and 40lbs, average weight 30lbs, total biomass = 900lb.
So to keep things on a level playing field, the roach biomass is the same-900lb, made up of 450 roach, weighing between 1.5 and 3lb, averaging 2lbs.

So which fish would be hardest to target, in terms of total weight on the bank, I'd reckon on it being the carp.

You could argue that if the fish numbers were the same, not the biomass, then roach would be the tougher quarry but on that basis, imagine targetting 30 ruffe or even harder 30 sticklebacks.........

Zzzz............

 

[chub_on_the_block]

You are right Mark.Last Angling times survey found tench were fave fish..

I have been back into fishing for several years now, after a twenty year break more or less, and i still cant get my head around the way virtually every stillwater i have visited is dominated by carp and carp anglers.

I have now found some nice mixed lakes with tench, bream even "crucians" (although they are infact brown goldfish, some even with comet-tails), but even here the the main quarry for most is the carp and the lakes include an easy runs water and more difficult lake with some 30-40Ib fish.

It is all so one-dimensional. My favourite fish would be big roach, tench or true crucians. I havent seen a real crucian since about 1987. The last 2Ib roach i saw was the one i landed (along with a 5Ib chub) in a trotting session on the Dorset Stour in about 1983.

In my second season back i have now started to catch again - mostly bags of small bream, with one 5Ib+ fish, small carp and those brown goldfish (to over 2Ib) which actually make me sad that they are not the real thing, even though they are good sport on light tackle.

I had a very hard year with a different local club last year where i struggled for bites on most of their lakes using traditional methods (and had no interest whatsoever in targeting the monster catfish in one of them).

I think fish stocks have changed - with carp everywhere. There is almost no alternative. Having tench or roach as your favourite fish is masochistic - in some areas at least, as there is no classic roach or tench fishing to be found. What about the Ivel perhaps? - my local river. Well spent all last autumn in search of good roach and got them to about 14oz which was about the largest i saw or heard about, but hardly a specimen.

Why dont today's anglers get bored of the same quarry (carp) and methods (hair rigged boilie and bite alarm) all the time? Or maybe there is just a continuous turnover of them, each giving up after a couple of years once they get bored of it or get a respectable PB that is hard to beat (judging by ebay, maybe so).

 

[cg74]

Zzzz............

Hi barbelladyboy, its simple, if don't like it, don't read it!! (insert moony smiley)

 

[no-one in particular]

I suspect Mark W and Toadie are right .. favourite fish and most fished for could well be different things.

PS. Mark if you read this just wanted to congratulate you on finishing your book. I bet you put a lot of work into it. We were in contact around Christmas and I know you were busy with it then. I also contacted you recently about something else and did not mention your book. So, I hope this redresses that.

 

[laguna]

I compete against fish, the weather, conditions and myself and that is enough for me.

That is all it has ever been for me!
Competitive and yet still rewarding in times of failure...

 

[dezza]

Whilst I was out battling a huge tide on the Trent yesterday, my copy of "Big Roach" arrived.

After a quick scan through the chapters and photos, I must say that Mark has put in a great deal of effort and I am sure this book will become a standard work.

Other roach books have been written, one recently, but not with the same scope as this one. If there is any downside to this work, it is the lack of information covering Northern waters, something Mark has obvious little experience of, but he does mention Hornsea Mere.

The catches that Jim Bazley, Wilf Cutting and others had on this great Yorkshire natural lake, were fabulous. But those very big roach were only around for a short time.

The biggest roach I ever caught from Hornsea Mere would have been lucky to have exceeded 8 oz.

Another northern water that over the years has produced tremendous numbers of roach approaching 2 lbs, but only ever a tiny number over 2 lbs, was the River Idle in Nottinghamshire. Not far away is the Upper Witham. My old friend the late John Ledger had a 2 1/2 pounder from this river. Other northern rivers that have produced big roach are the Swale, the Torne and the Went. And a few local estate lakes, one of them not 2 miles from where I am sitting, have produced 3 pounders!

But "Big Roach" looks to be an excellent work.

 

[Mark Wintle]

The problem Ron highlights, lack of info about other waters, applies to many waters such as Danish and Irish rivers not just Northern ones. It's not lack of research on my part but simply that documented evidence of these catches is practically non-existent. There are catch reports from all over but rarely enough to have a good story. It's fortunate that people like John Bailey, T K Wilson, Terry Lampard and others wrote full and detailed accounts of waters like the Wensum, Hornsea, or the Avon because otherwise all you are left with is odd reports in AT or AM. Few big roach catches were reported anyway, and many of those involved are either untraceable or long dead. Some people did write long accounts of their catches that have never been published such as Gerry Swanton - he wrote a book on big roach; it never saw light of day and no-one knows where the typescript is, or whether it still exists. If people do have detailed accounts of big roach catches then I'm still gathering them because there's always a possibility of an eventual sequel but they do need to be exceptional, interesting and credible. I've had a couple of new stories in the last month.

 

[dezza]

One of the prime reasons for big roach catches not being known about is the secrecy code amongst a number of anglers.

In fact a few won't even publish photos of their fish for fear that the circus will find out where they are fishing from the background, or even the type of grass or twigs displayed on a shot of a fish laid next to the rod. The extent to which some people go to find the "X" that marks the spot is unbelievable.

 

[cg74]

My god, it must the joy of watching the French being out classed by Tonga, but I find myself in total agreement with Ron's last post; well except the "unbelievable" part.

I'd say totally believable, as only a complete fool, for the sake of a moments notoriety would bother helping the circus come to town.

 

[dezza]

I'd say totally believable, as only a complete fool, for the sake of a moments notoriety would bother helping the circus come to town.

I'd say it's all so very sad and has meant that the art of angling photography has all but disappeared. I have literally thousands of photographs of not only fish I have caught, but action shots and scenic views. I dare not release these due to the fact that the places of capture are shown on them.

It would mean an end to some of my favourite spots if I did. And not just MY favourite spots but others who also keep quiet about their location.

 

[watatoad]

I have to admit the secrecy is a very big part of some groups of anglers and it always has been since at least as far back as the 1950's.

I am not talking about the lesser important groups of specimen hunters who formed themselves into many of the now known specimen groups, those groups are considered by the more secretive groups as failed specimen hunters who are only after personal image and personal prestige rather than the pure chasing of real specimen fish.

 

[dezza]

One very well known big pike catcher who was known to me and shall be nameless, used to have up to 3 cars following him from a distance whenever he set off in the early morning.

**** Walker had much the same sort of thing take place on many occasion.

I would certainly advise Mark to change his car, now that his book has been published.

---------- Post added at 23:54 ---------- Previous post was at 23:47 ----------

failed specimen hunters who are only after personal image and personal prestige rather than the pure chasing of real specimen fish.

Unfortunately such people do exist. It's not the catching of the fish that matters to them, they could be just as happy getting a good score at darts. No, it is the fame, fortune and MONEY they are after.

Such is the problem with competitions like the Drennan Cup.

 

[smallbreamboy]

I have read this thread with interest, as i am going to get Marks book as an xmas present (you know how it is, what do you want), and the fact that i currently have my roach head on, and it would make my day/year to get a roach over the magical 2lb, to be honest, it i caught one of any size,by design i would be happy).

Due to lack of time, i have only had a handful of sessions targetting the roach in a pit that i fish for bream, many moons ago, it was match fished for the roach and i remember as a boy watching the adults catching alot of roach on a big peacock quill waggler, then with moving away etc and the progression of the venue to becoming a carp lake (well they call it that, however it's a big place and amount of fish to size of lake, it's not an easy venue), anyway fast forward a good few years and i am back on the lake after bream, i gain access to the local bream anglers clan and during that time, i am shown a photo of a dead roach, to get the size of it, the person put his size 13 skeetex boot next to it, head and tail were over each end.

Well i am sure you all know what is coming next, a few 24-48 hour sessions were planned (you have to be aware, i am not local to the venue, so fishing coincides with visiting friends and relatives). As i said, it's not small 100+ acres, and i only know of 2 anglers that targetted the big roach a few years before, having success and then leaving it, as they said they were happy with the catches.

The last attempt was for the last few days of the season when we had the really windy weather, i sat facing the wind (bivvy pegs were pulled out of the ground with wind), found a gravel bar and undertow, but not a touch. I do put some of this down to me not being able to walk the venue to try and find the fish, and have to use my gut instinct and what the "Experts" like when they go out.

I have been told to fish an easier venue, thankfully i have found one, also local to where my tackle is and no wehere near as big, once i have had one, think it's back to the hard venue to try and sort them out.

I do hope we don't have a hard winter and hopefully i can get out in feb/march to go for them.