Our reactions are a bit confusing (to me anyway)? The last trout I brought back home (to eat) was probably around 30 years ago, now all are returned, I couldn't just kill a fish but in the last 15 years or so have (without guilt) killed many dozens of signal crayfish ..... they are a destructive invasive species - but then again the same might be said of wels catfish?
Catfish
- Thread starter sam vimes
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no-one in particular
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Ha, I am sure your right however, I am wary of science whenever it comes to this kind of thing, nature has a way of doing its own thing; especially when it comes to fish populations, how many times have they got it wrong even with the benefit of the Beverton-Holt model-To be fair ... the history of the people involved is more interesting
That equation is the basis of all modern fisheries science. the bloke who wrote the original equation on top of a tank was a relation.
I do agree that fishing and angling in particular can provide a very good early indicator of problems ... but we can’t scenario model the effect of different management approaches on the populations.
I do not think anglers will notice much difference as catfish proceed to occupy our waters in as much as other species stock rates,the Ebro is exceptional in what has occured there,all the waters i've fished that have cats have fair populations of fish,plus they seem to creep up in numbers,not like zander...
mikench
Well-known member
......and it is. The presence of cats cannot be justified on any reasoning or justification. We cannot even blame primitive ignorance. They have no endearing qualities save to satiate the appetite of anglers who think they have a right to pit their wits against them. I hold such anglers in contempt like those people who like bull fighting, hare coursing, badger baiting and cockfights. If you need to get such a pull on your line try an articulated truck. The ecology and equilibrium of our natural world needs preserving and protecting against these selfish clowns. They are not indigenous for good reasons.
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steve2
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Marks comments about Scientific papers & reality reminded me of something…I recall reading a paper about Wels a few years ago & was sure I still had a copy of it somewhere and lo and behold, I managed to find it. It is a thesis done in 2012 on Wels in South West France. It is in French but here are some of the more lets say, interesting, highlights! …& remember guys I am just the messenger here. ?
Fun Catfish facts ! ...
Despite having naff eyesight it is a veritable sensory marvel. It can detect one molecule diluted in a ratio of 1 to 10 billion.
In addition to a lateral line its body is also covered by gel filled sensory blisters that can detect electrical signals given off by prey.
Finally, its swim bladder is directly connected to its ear meaning it is incredibly sensitive to vibrations …which explains why clonks work so well.
The upshot being it might be blind but its not going to have any problems catching something !
They are classed as opportunist predators and will prey upon whatever is available in its environment , usually what is most abundant.
Pike pound of pound consume prey significantly larger than Catfish & in cold water (less than 8 degrees) Catfish feeding literally falls to zero. This means for on average 4 months of the year Catfish eat nothing. Pike Perch and Zander will however continue feeding.
They will eat on average somewhere between 2 and 3 times its body weight in the course of a year compared to Pike which can be closer to 5 times their own body weight.
Catfish are also incredibly efficient digestors. Pike again as a comparison need to eat almost twice as much as Catfsh to gain the same weight.
Some good news - growth rates of Catfish meased across European zones showed the slowest rate of growth of all was in the UK
(..phew...?.)
Now the really interesting bit – The study concludes that Catfish propogate water systems rapidly but they stabilize rapidly as well.
In addition they have minimal impact on other fish species and (…wait for it…) …it suggests that not only do Catfish not empty watersways as feared, there was evidence to suggest that the introduction of Catfish actually INCREASES the biodeiversity and number of species in a water as they consume the most present & so leave room for other species that were formerly in the minority or absent to take hold.
It mentioned no study anywhere (at least up to 2012) had concluded or defined it as an invasive species.
Fun Catfish facts ! ...
Despite having naff eyesight it is a veritable sensory marvel. It can detect one molecule diluted in a ratio of 1 to 10 billion.
In addition to a lateral line its body is also covered by gel filled sensory blisters that can detect electrical signals given off by prey.
Finally, its swim bladder is directly connected to its ear meaning it is incredibly sensitive to vibrations …which explains why clonks work so well.
The upshot being it might be blind but its not going to have any problems catching something !
They are classed as opportunist predators and will prey upon whatever is available in its environment , usually what is most abundant.
Pike pound of pound consume prey significantly larger than Catfish & in cold water (less than 8 degrees) Catfish feeding literally falls to zero. This means for on average 4 months of the year Catfish eat nothing. Pike Perch and Zander will however continue feeding.
They will eat on average somewhere between 2 and 3 times its body weight in the course of a year compared to Pike which can be closer to 5 times their own body weight.
Catfish are also incredibly efficient digestors. Pike again as a comparison need to eat almost twice as much as Catfsh to gain the same weight.
Some good news - growth rates of Catfish meased across European zones showed the slowest rate of growth of all was in the UK
(..phew...?.)
Now the really interesting bit – The study concludes that Catfish propogate water systems rapidly but they stabilize rapidly as well.
In addition they have minimal impact on other fish species and (…wait for it…) …it suggests that not only do Catfish not empty watersways as feared, there was evidence to suggest that the introduction of Catfish actually INCREASES the biodeiversity and number of species in a water as they consume the most present & so leave room for other species that were formerly in the minority or absent to take hold.
It mentioned no study anywhere (at least up to 2012) had concluded or defined it as an invasive species.
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Windy
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The other half and I spent a very pleasant fortnight grabbing some autumn sun in a rented Spanish villa about ten years ago.
Our neighbour was a British ex-pat who had moved there to live full time and who made his basic living out of selling fishing gear from a converted camper van and a peripatetic market stall. While this paid the day to day bills the cream on his cake was organising Carp and Catfish fishing holidays for Brit enthusiasts camping out on the Ebro for a week / weekend / fortnight - you pays your money, you gets your choice.
He was very interesting in his account of how the river had developed over the years he had been hosting. When he started out ten years before (ie. circa 2000) the Ebro held a huge head of big Carp, with regular 50 - 60lb fish coming out to his guests, almost to the extent that he could guarantee that a 40lb+ fish would be caught by one or more if not all of his guests. Business was good and Catfish really didn't feature. The odd big one (40 - 50lbs) might be caught by accident and made a nice occasional surprise for his punters, but the Carp and other size able silver fish were the dominant biomass in the river.
Fast forward ten years to 2010 when this conversation took place and things had seriously changed on the Ebro. Smaller Carp (ie. 20lbs or less) had all but disappeared, that is, been eaten by the now dominant and growing Catfish population. Other / Silver fish ? Gone, hoovered out of existence by the growing and voracious Catfish hordes. There were still a few of the larger Carp hanging on, too big to be eaten by the then population of Catfish, but he had to radically change his business offering from Carp fishing to Catfish.
Four years on in 2014 we went back and I had another conversation with him. By this time he was reporting enormous Catfish in the 80 - 100lb range coming out of the Ebro, and had entirely changed his website / holiday offering to Catfish and Catfish primarily, with only a peripheral mention of the possibility of a large carp. Other fish.... none. Nothing. Riente. Nada. Cleaned out, including almost all of the kittens, eaten by Big Daddy and Mommy for want of anything else to eat.
Another two years to 2016... (OK, We're creatures of habit and the villa was owned by a friend of a friend and cost us virtually nothing....) and the last conversation I had with him about the Ebro and fish to be found there.
He said that the river had a head (but no longer a substantial head) of huge Catfish, and I mean huge if he was to be believed, but that there was nothing left for them to eat but each other. Literally. They'd eaten everything in the river they could, and were now starving for want of prey. He was turning up at the riverside and finding dead rotting 100lb Catfish drifting about in the margins. Not good for business and he was on the verge of selling up and returning to Britain.
Not least because the local organised crime mafia (I know, Mafia = italy, Spain is... damned if I know, but whatever their equivalent is) + some less than savoury East end crime ex-pats and Eastern European thugs had picked up on the huge demand and profits to be made selling idiots the 50lb+ / 100lb+ Carp / Catfish challenge. If I can put this in context the guy was no wimp. Think of the Rock's bigger older brother with two pet Rotweillers. And he was, if I am any judge, genuinely and seriously scared.
Anyway, back to the point, his parting shot was to note that as these dead monsters were washing up on the bank the river itself was showing signs of a revival of smaller carp, silver fish and a few survivor kittens. He expressed it as his view that the river would eventually - and we're talking 20 - 30 odd years- settle down to a level of mixed fishery biomass where Silver fish, decently sized Carp and a less extreme range of Catfish would finally sort out an equilibrium of sorts. Or maybe not ? Who knows.
The basic point that I derived is that the introduction of Catfish to an environment that has not previously had an establised population of them destructively spiralled out of control. Albeit over a period of 20 years or so and in a much hotter environment than in the UK.
Our neighbour was a British ex-pat who had moved there to live full time and who made his basic living out of selling fishing gear from a converted camper van and a peripatetic market stall. While this paid the day to day bills the cream on his cake was organising Carp and Catfish fishing holidays for Brit enthusiasts camping out on the Ebro for a week / weekend / fortnight - you pays your money, you gets your choice.
He was very interesting in his account of how the river had developed over the years he had been hosting. When he started out ten years before (ie. circa 2000) the Ebro held a huge head of big Carp, with regular 50 - 60lb fish coming out to his guests, almost to the extent that he could guarantee that a 40lb+ fish would be caught by one or more if not all of his guests. Business was good and Catfish really didn't feature. The odd big one (40 - 50lbs) might be caught by accident and made a nice occasional surprise for his punters, but the Carp and other size able silver fish were the dominant biomass in the river.
Fast forward ten years to 2010 when this conversation took place and things had seriously changed on the Ebro. Smaller Carp (ie. 20lbs or less) had all but disappeared, that is, been eaten by the now dominant and growing Catfish population. Other / Silver fish ? Gone, hoovered out of existence by the growing and voracious Catfish hordes. There were still a few of the larger Carp hanging on, too big to be eaten by the then population of Catfish, but he had to radically change his business offering from Carp fishing to Catfish.
Four years on in 2014 we went back and I had another conversation with him. By this time he was reporting enormous Catfish in the 80 - 100lb range coming out of the Ebro, and had entirely changed his website / holiday offering to Catfish and Catfish primarily, with only a peripheral mention of the possibility of a large carp. Other fish.... none. Nothing. Riente. Nada. Cleaned out, including almost all of the kittens, eaten by Big Daddy and Mommy for want of anything else to eat.
Another two years to 2016... (OK, We're creatures of habit and the villa was owned by a friend of a friend and cost us virtually nothing....) and the last conversation I had with him about the Ebro and fish to be found there.
He said that the river had a head (but no longer a substantial head) of huge Catfish, and I mean huge if he was to be believed, but that there was nothing left for them to eat but each other. Literally. They'd eaten everything in the river they could, and were now starving for want of prey. He was turning up at the riverside and finding dead rotting 100lb Catfish drifting about in the margins. Not good for business and he was on the verge of selling up and returning to Britain.
Not least because the local organised crime mafia (I know, Mafia = italy, Spain is... damned if I know, but whatever their equivalent is) + some less than savoury East end crime ex-pats and Eastern European thugs had picked up on the huge demand and profits to be made selling idiots the 50lb+ / 100lb+ Carp / Catfish challenge. If I can put this in context the guy was no wimp. Think of the Rock's bigger older brother with two pet Rotweillers. And he was, if I am any judge, genuinely and seriously scared.
Anyway, back to the point, his parting shot was to note that as these dead monsters were washing up on the bank the river itself was showing signs of a revival of smaller carp, silver fish and a few survivor kittens. He expressed it as his view that the river would eventually - and we're talking 20 - 30 odd years- settle down to a level of mixed fishery biomass where Silver fish, decently sized Carp and a less extreme range of Catfish would finally sort out an equilibrium of sorts. Or maybe not ? Who knows.
The basic point that I derived is that the introduction of Catfish to an environment that has not previously had an establised population of them destructively spiralled out of control. Albeit over a period of 20 years or so and in a much hotter environment than in the UK.
Ray Roberts
Well-known member
One of my club lakes has a head of catfish going over the ton, if rumours are to be believed anyway. I have seen pictures of some of them well over 80lb. This is a mixed fishery with a decent head of carp and decent weights of silver fish being caught in matches. The cats have obviously been there for quite a few years, yet there is still a decent amount of other species. So they most definitely haven’t cleared it out.
Had it not been for the first lockdown and then the lake subsequently being closed for a suspected oxygen problem I would have had a crack for the cats earlier this year.
Now I tend to live and let live as far as possible, but stamping on fish really!
Most of the barbel in English rivers are not natives of those rivers. Most of the carp in our lakes are stocked fish from foreign strains. In fact catfish have definitely been in English waters for longer than Leany carp, as have zander. Are you going to stamp on every carp you pull out that isn’t a wildie or every barbel that comes from a river where they weren’t an indigenous species? What are you going to do if you catch a decent grass carp, give it the boot? One man’s meat is another man’s poison. It wasn’t too long ago that match anglers threw any pike they caught up the bank, let’s not give the anti anglers even more ammunition.
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Had it not been for the first lockdown and then the lake subsequently being closed for a suspected oxygen problem I would have had a crack for the cats earlier this year.
Now I tend to live and let live as far as possible, but stamping on fish really!
Most of the barbel in English rivers are not natives of those rivers. Most of the carp in our lakes are stocked fish from foreign strains. In fact catfish have definitely been in English waters for longer than Leany carp, as have zander. Are you going to stamp on every carp you pull out that isn’t a wildie or every barbel that comes from a river where they weren’t an indigenous species? What are you going to do if you catch a decent grass carp, give it the boot? One man’s meat is another man’s poison. It wasn’t too long ago that match anglers threw any pike they caught up the bank, let’s not give the anti anglers even more ammunition.
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Barbel etc don't eat anything and everything they can, the resident fish can cope with them. Wels are a totally different animal and should be "stamped out"
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Ray Roberts
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Barbel etc don't eat anything and everything they can, the resident fish can cope with them. Wels are a totally different animal and should be "stamped out"
That isn’t the way salmon anglers regarded barbel when they were introduced to predominantly game rivers. In fact they would chuck them up the bank.
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theartist
Well-known member
Those differing concise comprehensive posts about catfish from Windy and Philip above, I feel like I want to add a 'like' to both yet one has to be wrong
Or does it?
Or does it?
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steve2
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Barbel etc don't eat anything and everything they can, the resident fish can cope with them. Wels are a totally different animal and should be "stamped out"
steve2
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Barbel etc don't eat anything and everything they can, the resident fish can cope with them. Wels are a totally different animal and should be "stamped out"
There are many that see the overstocking of carp in the same vein as catfish. One as destroyed many fisheries the other may gradually do the same, but only if it is allowed to.
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Game anglers did the same with pike and grayling...still happens.
You can guarantee they would throw a wels further up the bank!
A couple of years ago I watched a programme/series about angling for larger species of fish. I think it was a german angler. He wanted to catch a huge wels and first off went to Italy. The river was flooded and he did manage to hook some but lost them in the trees as he was fishing way above the normal river itself. Just for reference he was using quite large tench lvebaits!
Anyhow, he had to leave and i'm not sure if it was the same year or following year he had to fish above a huge dam on the ebro. He said that this area was noted for huge pike but sadly they were all gone now, due to the wels eating them all. My memory fails me as to what size catfish he caught but i'm sure he got some very large ones.
Maybe someone on FM will remember the programme ?
The chap fishing had light coloured hair and as I said sounded german but he may have been from another country.
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Ray Roberts
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I don’t condone stocking catfish but they are here, and I believe here to stay. It would be impossible to remove them from a river system once they have become established.
They have been caught by dedicated catfish anglers in the Thames and recently from the Medway too.
This is from a local f/b site. Most go unreported and under the radar.
How about this large ide?
www.advnture.com
Would you stamp on that. Is the angler who caught it wrong to have returned it?
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They have been caught by dedicated catfish anglers in the Thames and recently from the Medway too.
This is from a local f/b site. Most go unreported and under the radar.
How about this large ide?
River Medway shock coarse fish caught from boat
Nick Byworth thought he’d caught a massive chub hybrid, but then realised it was a cracking 7 lb 2 oz ide.
www.advnture.com
Would you stamp on that. Is the angler who caught it wrong to have returned it?
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The chub population of the middle Severn would beg to differ.
I don't have a position on this but, as with otters, I wonder if the problem might be just how 'unnatural' some of our natural waters are.
So many are stocked heavily with big (unnatural in themselves) carp and barbel and don't have much in the way of predation. Then a ton of free food is chucked in by anglers every day.
Introducing a predator like an otter to this is like leaving a fat kid in a sweet shop - but would you call this unbalancing or balancing a river?
I don't know enough about catfish to say what impact they will have, but I'm not sure if killing fish is a problem in itself.
So many are stocked heavily with big (unnatural in themselves) carp and barbel and don't have much in the way of predation. Then a ton of free food is chucked in by anglers every day.
Introducing a predator like an otter to this is like leaving a fat kid in a sweet shop - but would you call this unbalancing or balancing a river?
I don't know enough about catfish to say what impact they will have, but I'm not sure if killing fish is a problem in itself.