Crucian (?) ID

[Another Dave]

The colours look right but something about the shape has me wondering.

It's not my fish but there's a lake pretty close to me that they say has these to 3lb.

What do you chaps reckon?

 

[sam vimes]

crucians.org identification.

I make the lateral line scale count at 29/30. That puts it firmly in brown goldfish territory. Have a look at the various indicators on the linked website and see what you think.

 

[Ray Roberts]

I count 32 scales along the lateral line but it looks like a brown goldfish to me. As the
Dorsal fin isn’t exposed or the anal fin for that matter it is hard to be 100% sure. This gives a good guide for identification.

Identification of Carassius Carassius

www.crucians.org

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[Ray Roberts]

Oops.


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[Another Dave]

Thanks for the replies. I thought it sounded a bit too good to be true when I heard the sizes.

 

[Another Dave]

Yeah the tail's too forked, going by the crucians.org guide linked above.

 

[mikench]

I've decided I really can't tell a true crucian but if it looks like one, struggles like one and graces my net , I'm happy to call it a crucian. I won't be claiming any records so it's my own affair. I will look more closely at the next one I catch as most are small and look like crucian to me.

 

[steve2]

I still have a clear picture in my mind of what Crucians should look like and that's not it. The stocking of gold fish as really made IDing Crucian difficult.

 

[Mark Wintle]

My first impression of this fish is a crucian x goldfish. I'll pass the picture on to Peter Rolfe yo see what he thinks.

 

[Mark Wintle]

I've decided I really can't tell a true crucian but if it looks like one, struggles like one and graces my net , I'm happy to call it a crucian. I won't be claiming any records so it's my own affair. I will look more closely at the next one I catch as most are small and look like crucian to me.

The problem with that view is that in time anglers collectively lose sight of what the original actually looks like. This is what has happened widely on the Continent where the spread of gibel carp has pushed the crucian into near extinction yet the local name for crucian, e.g. carassio (Italy), carassin (France), has transferred to what are actually gibel carp.

 

[mikench]

I accept your critique and cannot argue with it. However I'm a simple soul who catches" crucians" rarely and who , in truth, may never have caught a true one. I feel those smaller ones I have caught look more like the carrassus carrassus we seek and I will look more closely at any larger examples I may catch to see if the various true characteristics are in evidence ie lateral scale number , ribs on anal fin and a straight tail line. If a water declares the presence of crucians and I catch something that to my mind looks like one then I'm content to conclude, rightly or wrongly, that it is. I'm the only one deceived.

If not officially stocked in a water how do brown goldfish get there or develop?

 

[steve2]

I think many brown gold fish were stocked in the belief that they were Crucians. Seem to remember the same thing happened with Ide they were stocked with Roach. We now also have F1 carp thrown into the mix.

 

[Keith M]

To me it looks like a Crucian x goldfish cross given the scale count along its lateral line plus I suspect its tail is slightly too large and a little too forked to be a true crucian. Although it’s colouring looks fine.

Compare its tail fin to the crucian pictured below and I think you can see the difference.



Keith

 

[Mark Wintle]

Peter Rolfe has come back to me and confirms what I thought, a crucian x goldfish hybrid.

 

[steve2]

Aren't F1 carp a cross between Crucian and goldfish?

 

[Mark Wintle]

F1 actually means F (filial - son of), 1 (first generation) so the term strictly applies to any first generation hybrid, but fish breeders specifically applied the term to hybrids of carp and crucians except that some fish sold as 'F1s' were actually goldfish x carp or crucians x goldfish or even gibel carp.

 

[108831]

Looks as though there is a lot of brown goldfish in there,fin coloration isn't quite right too,a water Keith and I fish has problems of identification,some look perfect and scale counts work out,but there is always doubt....

 

[S-Kippy]

Life's too short to count scales. If it has the classic crucian shape/colour and also has orange fins then its a crucian. I catch a few and dont have any difficulty identifying a true crucian.

 

[The bad one]

I accept your critique and cannot argue with it. However I'm a simple soul who catches" crucians" rarely and who , in truth, may never have caught a true one. I feel those smaller ones I have caught look more like the carrassus carrassus we seek and I will look more closely at any larger examples I may catch to see if the various true characteristics are in evidence ie lateral scale number , ribs on anal fin and a straight tail line. If a water declares the presence of crucians and I catch something that to my mind looks like one then I'm content to conclude, rightly or wrongly, that it is. I'm the only one deceived.

If not officially stocked in a water how do brown goldfish get there or develop?

Mike did you never fish the ponds around Chelford, Alderly Edge area 1950s/60s when you were a kid? Because if you did, you'll have had a true crucians many times and they all looked like the one in Keith's photo.

 

[mikench]

I didn't Phil. I only fished for about 3 years from 1967 to 1970 and only the Rochdale canal and Hollingworth lake legitimately. I fished the Lakes at Trowes Lane Castleton once or twice. I had never heard of a crucian until 4 years ago. I'm happy to catch a fish that looks like a crucian, fights like a crucian and is supposed to be one.