Dam Tourists -no beaver content ; wild fishing and snobbery

[John Aston]

I had an hour on my North York Moors stream yesterday but spent another 30 minutes dismantling part of a dam which had appeared since my last trip. It's a popular spot for the few picnickers who venture up the dead end road and some of them(I assume ) had made a bank to bank dam out of rocks. Very effective too ,and I'm sure they enjoyed paddling the deeper water they'd created and went home happy . No litter left , no sign of BBQ so all well ? Not at all - because in creating the dam they'd removed most of the flow from the stream . What had been a nice pool with a healthy , foam flecked current was now virtually still . And within a few weeks every stone had become covered in algae , and the invertebrates (who need a good . well oxygenated flow and clean rock ) had left as had , I suspect, most of the trout and grayling.

I'm happy to report that flow and level are back to normal, but it just shows how delicate an environment our waters are and how a simple , innocent action can have a severe effect.

I had half a dozen lovely wild browns and lost a thumping grayling from a pool the size of my bath.

I was thinking of my day as I read Angling Times (a rare event for me ) and rather frothed when I read an article about small stream wild fishing by Dom Garnett . Two reasons -

-he takes a poorly aimed swipe at the 'tyranny of trout fishing rules ' , which prevent stuff like streamer fishing . Really ? The only really prescriptive rules I've encountered have been on premier league chalk streams and it seems to me he's tilting at long gone stereotypes . The most prescriptive rules by far I've ever encountered are on modern commercials . I belong to a number of clubs with wild trout fishing and the rules tend to be on the lines of catch and release, barbless hooks and fly only . Upstream ,downstream , wet , dry lure etc . Ah , but it's restricted to fly you say - well yeah , it is by far the most effective way of catching fish on small streams once you know what you're doing and unlike worm or maggot you never deep hook .

- Dom also claims there's hardly any wild fishing left in England which is utter b***ks . You won't find much in Middlesex perhaps(but I stand to be corrected ) but there are hundreds of miles of becks rivers and streams to explore in the northern part of the country , as well as in the Welsh borders and elsewhere. I have access to well over 50miles of unstocked wild trout , grayling (and sometimes chub and dace too) within less than an hours drive , costing from 30 quid a year to over 700 - as well as lots of day ticket stuff. Yet again , apart from Dom's Devon piece the AT seems to regard 'England 'as 'anywhere within 100 miles of bloody Peterborough

Rant over !

 

[Keith M]

You wait for the beavers to arrive, then there will be dams every half mile and your precious stream and all its trout and other wild life that relies on clean flowing water will be no more; and all of your clean gravels will be covered in algae or silt again

Keith

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Grayson, I cold not agree more with evey word in your post.

 

[John Aston]

Well Keith , the jury's out on that isn't it ? I have no personal knowledge of beavers (quiet at the back ) beyond once seeing one in France. But reading people like John Gierach , who fishes the western states of the USA and Alaska , there seems to be no real issue there. But we will have to wait and see , and I suspect that they are the least of the our problems and only get much press because some think they are cuddly and sweet and others think they are the end of the world as we know it (see also zander and otters). I think our key enemies are far more insidious - climate change and extreme weather (droughts and floods), pollution and habitat loss . None of these is very sexy , so more obvious targets attract more flak .

 

[mikench]

And don't forget that the banning of fishing and being a vegan will cure all those problems!

 

[rayner]

We have to understand that the waters and fish are not our property. Fishing is not the be-all in water usage. OK beavers have been reintroduced into watercourses where they had been hunted out of existence hundreds of years ago. According to a study, beavers can alleviate flooding, reduce pollution, and promote fish breeding with other water life invertebrates also being aided.
The only ones against the introduction of water dwellers are anglers. The waters are ours is not right, nothing else should be tolerated is the ethos of some anglers.

 

[theartist]

Whilst Middlesex is pretty urban and does cover a large chunk of London that has very few clean rivers there is plenty of wild fishing in close proximity and within the M25, I would go as far as saying some of the wildest rivers I have fished are in such urban areas, granted they have been shaped by man (if that's what he means) and you'll have trouble casting a fly as they are pretty overgrown, that's even if you can find the river in summer but their wildness isn't in question for me.

If by wild he means finding a stretch of river in England where you can walk for a few miles and not see a road, house or any sign of man then he would have a point in comparison to many other less populated countries.

 

[keora]

I don't object to the reintroduction of beavers. What I don't believe is the idea that a few beavers' dams will reduce the effect of flooding. The dams can never hold back enough floodwater, when compared to the huge volumes of water that flow down the rivers after heavy rain.

 

[Philip]

Good thread & I agreed with everything the OP said up to the point of the rant about rules and attempting to argue that rules on commercials are more perscriptive than on fly only on game rivers which he discounts due to the fly being by far the most effective way of catching the fish.

Apart from the fact I recon bait will out fish fly in the long run every single time I dont agree with that at all.

I guess it could turn into a word definition game around the word "perscriptive" but to my mind fly only is more RESTRICTIVE than any silly list of rules even as long as two arms on a commericial.

Agree on the wild trout fishing point... you can still catch wild brown Trout within the M25 if you know were to look.

 

[no-one in particular]

I haven't fished a commercial for some time but fished quite a few in my time. I am not talking the ultra specimen carp lakes here, just the good mixed fishing lakes you can find on a lot of them and day ticket type waters. The rules are pretty simple and common sense, barbless hooks, nets must be dipped before fishing, sometimes unhooking mats are required these days and some baits are banned as deemed harmful. I don't understand the OP's comment on that, at least not in my experience, nothing too much to observe on the ones I have fished. Is this just another unfounded untrue anti commercial dig based on ignorance of the reality?
Fly Fishing, I don't know much about the rules, they must vary but I used to catch a few in a couple of wildish tiny streams I know, and they were suicidal on just about anything that moved in the water or a worm and maggot. I think worm/maggot had the edge because they would dart out for a fly or tiny lure and sometimes turn away but a worm or maggot was always taken.
I always think fly fishing is a bit of a myth anyway, more to put the oik off than anything else. I learned how to basic cast in about 1/2 and hour on a river the very first time I tried it, granted learning all the different casts must take some practice but basic casting is not that hard once you remember a couple of basic rules which I picked up from a diagram in a book.

I was born in Middlesex

 

[waldi]

Beavers do cause problems when they are put in an unsuitable habitat.
We have lots over here and are mainly in lakes and deepish rivers.
You would'nt know about them except for the odd one you see early morning swimming past or the young ones chewing on small bushes/saplings after weening.

They build dams so as the entrance to their burrow can be underwater. Not for the fun of it.
If the enviro (mental) ists insist on releasing them in unsuitable areas of course they will try to adapt it to their requirements.

"Greenies" are not always the best informed unfortunately.

 

[rayner]

Experts generally consider that beavers are good for the environment and wildlife in several ways. I do not know anything regarding beavers, I do know if beavers are present they would give themselves away by the chews they make where they live. They can not cut down any trees without giving clues as to where they are.
I will reiterate that the only people in the UK to be against beavers are anglers. So what if fishing alters on a particular venue. A good angler adapts, poor anglers are reluctant to change. If we are not prepared to share watercourses we will soon have nowhere to fish.
Wildlife is wanted by most of the public in the UK, anglers will soon be forgotten. Get with the programme or get out of any activity needing water to perform.
I have no reason to moan about beavers, they are nowhere near where I live or fish. I would still struggle to find a reason not to have beavers.
There is plenty of beaver facts laid down by experts. Not so much from the average layperson.
I know who I put faith in.

 

[mikench]

Just wait till we get Bison! Do you know the difference between a buffalo and a bison? You can’t wash your hands in a buffalo.?

 

[Mark Wintle]

I've seen beavers in Canada and the USA and the type of water where they enhance the rivers is where the stream has a high gradient ie the water is very fast and very shallow so the dams create pools and improve holding spots for trout. There needs to be forest as well to provide the trees for the dams. There is still plenty of shallow water for spawning. In one of the American fishing books I've got the writer describes a stream that had beavers and a good head of trout and what happened when the beavers were trapped. The dams went within a couple of years and so did the trout. When trapping ceased the beavers eventually returned and the trout came back. This was over the course of a couple of decades. Of course the beavers are also on lakes; the first one I saw was on the St Laurence Seaway.

 

[mikench]

I have seen beavers in Canada and in several large national parks in the US i.e. Vast wilderness areas with little or no human habitation. I've seen millions of wildebeest, zebra and other herbivores on the Serengeti, again a vast area with hardly any human habitation. The UK is far too small and vastly overpopulated as it is without more mouths to feed. New species cannot be contained.

Even the Bialowieza Forest in Poland , which is home to 800 bison is over 3,000 sq kilometres in size and there are over 90,000 sq kilometres of forest areas in Poland. Apart from Scotland ane parts of Wales, we are overpopulated.

 

[John Aston]

. Having bait fished for trout for many years before learning to fly fish, I actually catch more on fly. The advantage of fly on overgrown streams like mine is that a skilled fly caster can fish water you couldn't as effectively fish with bait and I can also present surface flies very effectively , and some times that is a fundamental key to catching . But whatever, it's essentially about enjoyment and while I loathe catching trout while trotting for grayling , I adore getting them on a technique I love to use. Just the same applies with perch -any perch of any size is very welcome on a light lure but when I am trying to catch tench or roach , no thanks, bloody nuisance unless the perch is big. Context is all .

I also wasn't 'ranting' about rules on a commercial , just stating a fact - one of my locals has a comical number of rules , down to hook size, line type , bait choice and BS line. I have never seen so many rules , anywhere.

As for elitism - oh , leave it out , I've fished for everything from chalk stream trout to most coarse species for 40 odd years and most anglers I meet , of any discipline are decent , friendly folk . I have only once encountered serious snobbery in a game club club, way back in the 80s and I resigned shortly afterwards (it wasn't directed at me but I loathe snobbery - and reverse snobbery - in any form ) . There's always an exception , and whilst I've met the odd a*** trout fishing, the most common one I encounter these days is the very small minority of bivvy dwellers who can only communicate in monosyllables .

In conclusion I'd say that a dyed in the wool fly fisherman is missing out hugely on the fun to be had from bait fishing , and those who have never tried fly fishing because of some preconception are also missing out . Fly fishing taught me more about fish location (and not just trout ) than years of bait fishing . Fly ain't just about making it difficult and catching fewer fish -my only 100lb plus catch of chub was taken on dry fly one blazing hot summer afternoon. But that is another story ...

 

[S-Kippy]

I was born in Middlesex

So was I....and raised there mores the pity.

I enjoy my fly fishing albeit as the OP said there isn't much in Middx or where I live now ( there is some but its more money than I'll pay). I wouldnt like to say whether fly or bait is more effective on "wild" (ish) waters but I've seen bait fisherman do great slaughter on the sea trout rivers I fish in Wales. I've no desire to do that and it makes the odd sea trout I do manage to catch on fly even more of a prize.

Now and again I catch a few grayling trotting bait on the Itchen and enjoy it but give me a fly caught grayling off the Welsh Dee any day.

 

[no-one in particular]

So was I....and raised there mores the pity.

I enjoy my fly fishing albeit as the OP said there isn't much in Middx or where I live now ( there is some but its more money than I'll pay). I wouldnt like to say whether fly or bait is more effective on "wild" (ish) waters but I've seen bait fisherman do great slaughter on the sea trout rivers I fish in Wales. I've no desire to do that and it makes the odd sea trout I do manage to catch on fly even more of a prize.

Now and again I catch a few grayling trotting bait on the Itchen and enjoy it but give me a fly caught grayling off the Welsh Dee any day.

"Mores the pity", I wouldn't totally disagree with that. I am out of touch with any fishing there, I moved out when I was 14 but my memories are not that bad, the Thames and parks and GUCanal. I don't remember any fly fishing but I expect there are a few places now, I know of one in Brentford, Syon House, I believe that is trout fly fishing now and it was a very nice place..

 

[markcw]

Just wait till we get Bison! Do you know the difference between a buffalo and a bison? You can’t wash your hands in a buffalo.?

And you can't put taps on a bison.?

 

[rayner]

I have seen beavers in Canada and in several large national parks in the US i.e. Vast wilderness areas with little or no human habitation. I've seen millions of wildebeest, zebra and other herbivores on the Serengeti, again a vast area with hardly any human habitation. The UK is far too small and vastly overpopulated as it is without more mouths to feed. New species cannot be contained.

Even the Bialowieza Forest in Poland , which is home to 800 bison is over 3,000 sq kilometres in size and there are over 90,000 sq kilometres of forest areas in Poland. Apart from Scotland ane parts of Wales, we are overpopulated.

That could solve a problem. Evict the Scots, send them to the EU then turn Scotland into a county to form a national park. Surely Bison are less bother.