Dam Tourists -no beaver content ; wild fishing and snobbery

[steve2]

If what I have seen over the last few years with lakes changing to conservation waters with no fishing it would be quite easy to turn a section of river into a conservation area. If a beaver or otter appears on a water near you don't tell your local nature trust.

 

[sam vimes]

Don't you fish/control a river like that and if it happened, could you lose members or will you have to reduce your fees?

The chances of the rivers (or parts of rivers) that I fish silting up is rather unlikely even if there was a beaver dam every hundred yards. It might actually do some good, but I don't know either way. I'm far more concerned by over extraction, excessively fast run off and eutrophication than the vague prospect of beavers overrunning the place and the subsequent uncertain results.

 

[sam vimes]

If what I have over the last few years with lakes changing to conservation waters with no fishing it would be quite easy to turn a section of river into a conservation area. If a beaver or otter appears on a water near you don't tell your local nature trust.

Has that happened with otters? I'm getting quite used to seeing them locally, in all kinds of venue. No one has even threatened to stop angling when they've turned up. Some places have undoubtedly been lost to angling. However, some places are lost to angling regardless of the presence of any particular species of flora/fauna.

 

[no-one in particular]

bb

The chances of the rivers (or parts of rivers) that I fish silting up is rather unlikely even if there was a beaver dam every hundred yards. It might actually do some good, but I don't know either way. I'm far more concerned by over extraction, excessively fast run off and eutrophication than the vague prospect of beavers overrunning the place and the subsequent uncertain results.

Pleased to hear it, and it might not be a problem anywhere but it has been along the river Otter to some degree and could develop the same along other rivers. Only time will tell.

 

[no-one in particular]

If what I have seen over the last few years with lakes changing to conservation waters with no fishing it would be quite easy to turn a section of river into a conservation area. If a beaver or otter appears on a water near you don't tell your local nature trust.

Which is what happened in Devon, the Devon Wildlife Trust banned fishing, boating, swimming, even the walking of dogs without a special permit for the chance of an otter taking up residence even before one had and along miles of river. It was only in sections of river they had control of but nevertheless; could happen with beavers. Again, I am only second guessing what might happen and probably won't but, there is precedent..

 

[nottskev]

If you comb through the Exeter University report you will find reference to only modest issues, fairly easily managed, and explicit statements that the benefits accrued, on several dimensions, from their presence outweighs any downsides. Why anyone would wish to sustain endless alarmist prediction using this report as their principal evidence beats me, unless they have a predilection for prophesying doom and posing as more far-seeing than the average University scientist.

 

[theartist]

If you comb through the Exeter University report you will find reference to only modest issues, fairly easily managed, and explicit statements that the benefits accrued, on several dimensions, from their presence outweighs any downsides. Why anyone would wish to sustain endless alarmist prediction using this report as their principal evidence beats me, unless they have a predilection for prophesying doom and posing as more far-seeing than the average University scientist.

Sadly the wider implications could extend much further and much more detrimentally to the environment than one study based in Devon. I'm assuming maybe wrongly that Exeter Uni's studies have concentrated on that of the Beaver population on the River Otter - A river I have enjoyed fishing on a couple of occasions pre Beaver and know a bit about, I do know it has a healthy sea trout and mullet run each year which I'm sure doesn't extend as far as the beaver relocation but what if they spread downstream and it does in a few years?

If so those who are predicting any doom scenario shouldn't be placated by a limited field of study as such. If they do have arguments nimby style that they don't want beavers in their backyard it could be well founded still as we have all yet to learn the true implications of 're-wilding' such a creature on our limited countryside, the wider picture as far as angling is concerned could also see beavers as an issue given the circus that surrounds those on the Otter judging from the pictures you see on telly, where they are surrounded by photographers and tourists as almost 'pets' so used to man, having being reared, introduced and papped more than an A-list celeb so much that they don't appear wild at all.

It looks like a freak show at the moment to be frank.

 

[no-one in particular]

I thought some were modest and manageable but some could be more worrying, the fact that some clubs/syndicates/riparian owners lost members and revenue or had to contend with abuse from the public is not modest in my opinion, one riparian owner had to reduce his fees by £200, is that modest, I don't know. I am far from sustaining endless alarmist prediction, I am not alarming anyone just informing them of my opinion and what I have learned from years of reading on ecological matters. If anyone wants to dispute it that's fine, I will be enlightened by it if it makes more sense or I think they outweigh my argument. So far I have not seen any that I entirely believe in, i.e., that they will slow down floods to any great degree and the bio diversity will be that special. Nor am I using this report as principle evidence, I have been discussing the beaver reintroduction on here for two or more years and with the environment agency and a couple of other organizations, I only found this report a week ago. I have not added anything to the report so cannot be posing as far more far-seeing than it. or the scientists that compiled it. It posed questions that I had not thought of and I thought it would be worth reading, that's all. I have only mentioned it twice, once on another thread and here once, twice in total!

I think it is important in that it is unbiased and factual.

Sorry I see I messed that post up a bit but hope it is clear as to who said what etc...

 

[nottskev]

Sadly the wider implications could extend much further and much more detrimentally to the environment than one study based in Devon. I'm assuming maybe wrongly that Exeter Uni's studies have concentrated on that of the Beaver population on the River Otter - A river I have enjoyed fishing on a couple of occasions pre Beaver and know a bit about, I do know it has a healthy sea trout and mullet run each year which I'm sure doesn't extend as far as the beaver relocation but what if they spread downstream and it does in a few years?

If so those who are predicting any doom scenario shouldn't be placated by a limited field of study as such. If they do have arguments nimby style that they don't want beavers in their backyard it could be well founded still as we have all yet to learn the true implications of 're-wilding' such a creature on our limited countryside, the wider picture as far as angling is concerned could also see beavers as an issue given the circus that surrounds those on the Otter judging from the pictures you see on telly, where they are surrounded by photographers and tourists as almost 'pets' so used to man, having being reared, introduced and papped more than an A-list celeb so much that they don't appear wild at all.

It looks like a freak show at the moment to be frank.

I wouldn't disagree. The issue is complicated and has a lot of facets. I was pointing out that the report which had, I think, been referred to as evidence of problems, weighs pro's and con's in some detail and draws mainly positive conclusions.

There's a lot of interesting and important stuff at stake in these topics. As you say, we will learn what we learn. Taking up the topic in a kind of "look at what crazy schemes these re-wilders, tree-huggers and bunny-lovers are up to now" style ( and ofc I don't refer to the post I am answering) just causes noise and friction.

The visitor circus freak show? Sure. But short term novelty, especially in a context where we're not exactly awash in wildlife good news stories, will give them a high profile. Who's to say, aside from the putative environmental benefits of their re-introduction, that raising the public's appreciation of mammals and their place in the natural world isn't a good thing?

 

[no-one in particular]

I have been following all these re-wilding projects for years, they are all mainly major big animals (funny that, I wonder why!), they don't scurry around in the undergrowth, some are major predators, bison, wolves, lynx, beavers, white tailed eagles, great bustards, white storks. They will have a big impact in our country if they breed in good numbers. We need to know what that impact will be good and bad. You won't hear much about the bad on the tv; and I have learnt enough to know that I don't want any of them, they are a bad idea and a badly thought out concept and I think history will judge it badly, and no; I am not making a prediction or being deliberately a doomsayer, it just happens to be what I think based on all I have read and learned over a considerable number of years, the good and the bad and weighed it all up in my own mind; I will leave it at that........

 

[nottskev]

150 water voles were released on the banks of a Hertfordshire river last week. Uk water voles face extirpation, numbers reduced by 90% due to habitat loss and predation by mink. Mink traps in the area are reducing their numbers to give the voles a better chance. The voles' activities create small spaces in which plants can grow, their burrows are re-used by other mammals and amphibians and the odd vole makes a meal for an owl or kestrel. A vole population is a good sign of the health of a waterway. A nice example of how a restored species (someone denied that species loss creates gaps in nature) supports other species up and down the trophic cascade - it's worth googling that concept to get an idea of how these chains of interdependence work, and what is gained or lost by a species' presence or absence.

 

[Philip]

If the rivers are already silted up and slow flowing which so many are then would the Beavers even need to build dams ?

150 water voles were released on the banks of a Hertfordshire river last week. Uk water voles face extirpation, numbers reduced by 90% due to habitat loss and predation by mink. Mink traps in the area are reducing their numbers to give the voles a better chance. The voles' activities create small spaces in which plants can grow, their burrows are re-used by other mammals and amphibians and the odd vole makes a meal for an owl or kestrel. A vole population is a good sign of the health of a waterway. A nice example of how a restored species (someone denied that species loss creates gaps in nature) supports other species up and down the trophic cascade - it's worth googling that concept to get an idea of how these chains of interdependence work, and what is gained or lost by a species' presence or absence.

All good and well until a different study by another expert decides we dont have enough Mink..(insert species of choice. )

 

[steve2]

Water Vole are lovely little animals they were on every river and stream when I was growing up. Then of course came the release of the mink by the animal lib groups without any thought of the destruction they would cause. Bit like what happened with signal crayfish when they were released from or climbed out of the ponds and could happen again with the release into the wild of any animal with no natural predator.

 

[nottskev]

Repent ye! The end is nigh.

 

[nottskev]

A suggestion for those to whom every silver lining has a cloud, and whose glass is always half empty: get a smaller glass.

 

[mikench]

The trouble is our attempts to provide species to fill a gap and provide a solution to one problem creates another. Cane toads and camels in Australia to name but 2. Often the introduced species, deliberately or otherwise, out competes the native species, such as crays, and others such as grey squirrels carry a disease they are immune to but which reds are not. Mink are an example of a very effective predator with few natural predators of themselves. Otters kill mink so that's a useful effect of increases in the otter population.
I love animals and have no issues with the reintroduction of species like fish eagles, lynx, beaver and bison but it is highly unlikely , except for Bison , that the creatures will stay where they are put. I say Bison because if they wander off and into your garden they are easily spotted unlike mink, crays, and insects. I often play the role of devils advocate because generally mans attempts to change the course of nature usually ends in disaster and schemes to keep such creatures in a defined area are unlikely to succeed.

We are fortunate in the UK that we don't have dangerous animals like lions, tigers, elephants, moose etc nor do we have poisonous snakes or spiders. If we did and they were endangering our loved ones or eating food which could bring starvation to them, we would think very differently and be far more unforgiving.

 

[theartist]

Water Voles are not the best example of species reintroduction when they have been almost wiped out by another species illegally introduced, had man not tampered in the first place they would still be thriving. By all means try and help an endangered species but it shouldn't be lauded as an example to champion, it's never going to restore parity as the damage has been done. If ever there was an argument was for NOT introducing anything the water vole/mink scenario is it.

 

[nottskev]

The restoration of native species is not the same as the introduction of foreign species. The belief that solving one problem inevitably creates another is in the end a counsel of despair. An understanding of the webs and chains of interdependence between species is the work of a lifetime, and it grieves me to see knockdown arguments rooted in misunderstanding and catastrophising. We need to become as proficient and resourceful in maintaining and regenerating the life of our environment as we have proved in damaging it. Just down the road from me Peregrines nest annually on a city centre building. I can remember when some of the loudest voices in matters to do with our countryside condemned them as verminous predators ( on things rich blokes like to shoot, mostly) and when landmark publications exposed the pesticidal farming practices that nearly wiped them out. I find it shocking that the exploration of ways to reverse some of the depredations we have caused is met with such negativity.

 

[nottskev]

Why shouldn't the vole business be " lauded"? It's one thing among many that shows laudable commitment to improvement. So what if it doesn't solve everything. In addition, since we can hardly look to the world of angling to exclusively carry the torch, it's the type of thing that is likely, quite rightly, to bring more of the public onside with attempts to tackle some of the many degredations out there.

 

[theartist]

Why shouldn't the vole business be " lauded"? It's one thing among many that shows laudable commitment to improvement. So what if it doesn't solve everything. In addition, since we can hardly look to the world of angling to exclusively carry the torch, it's the type of thing that is likely, quite rightly, to bring more of the public onside with attempts to tackle some of the many degredations out there.

It's nothing more than a press friendly media bite, as you say to bring the public onside and no doubt give those who do it rosy glow, laudible yes as a token effort but nothing more than that. No doubt they will be surrounded by scientists and film crew so how wild will they be? If the public really want to learn about nature get them out in the wild and do what we did when we were growing up, not make it into some sort of plastic man made countryside for city folk to play in. It's all a bit too artificial for my liking and papering over cracks.

Best thing for the countryside - leave the damn thing alone aside from culling the species that are causing major imbalance, it's getting all to urban out there and nothing seems wild anymore.

This whole beaver introduction is nowt but a toy for a few to play with