Dam Tourists -no beaver content ; wild fishing and snobbery

[mikench]

I heartily approve of the reintroduction of Ratty- lovely creatures and a feature of our river banks until recently. My local pool( A SSSi) with no fishing allowed is run by East Cheshire council. All the voles imo have gone so have the fish and thus the grebes and other creatures which ate them. The pool is now free of algae( feeding the birds is banned) and, it would appear, all other forms of life. I don't call that progress and neither does one of the rangers who comes regularly. The only multiplying things are brambles, weeds and those quaint little black bags full of dog s**** which grow on trees and shrubs.
Kites have made a comeback so too have different types of harriers. The fact remains though that the decline of so many species of birds, mammals, fauna and flora is down to the greed, stupidity and intolerance of man. But for man they wouldn't have been polluted, shot, poisoned and developed out of existence to begin with. We owe them big time. My worry isn't the reintroduction but the management.

 

[Philip]

While I like the idea of species making a comeback I find it hard to get very enthusiastic about it when they are reintroduced in a sterile controlled way to environments that have moved on and are now developed and no longer really wild.

It’s a bit like when you see a documentary about say “wild” Rhinos but notice one has a big radio tag attached to it like a car antenna….it spoils it for me and would be like seeing an animal in a Zoo albeit without the obvious cage or bars round it.

I actually have more interest in animals that are hardly living in the “wild” but have at least found their own footing in their environment. Urban foxes for example I would consider more wild than a Beaver plonked in some out of the way UK nature reserve.

The point being that re-wilding (I hate that term!) in places like the South East of England which is the most densely populated place in Europe is basically just a joke. Its never going to return to become some sort of lush animal filled paradise with song birds and bubbling brooks overflowing with life balanced in perfect natural harmony.

More likely it will actually be some fenced off bit of landscaped river (no doubt lost to an angling club) with a wooden walkway round it and lots of “don’t cross the red line” signs for bank holiday crowds to pay £10 a pop to see a “wild” Beaver with a hot dog stand and a sounvenir shop in tow to fleece the gullible.

 

[steve2]

The only way to re-wild the south east is to stop building so many houses, stop over abstracting the rivers and move half the population else where and knock down the empty houses.The whole of theSouth East of this country is to small and overpopulated for the introduction of more species including humans.

 

[no-one in particular]

The only way to re-wild the south east is to stop building so many houses, stop over abstracting the rivers and move half the population else where and knock down the empty houses.The whole of theSouth East of this country is to small and overpopulated for the introduction of more species including humans.

Bramber and Billie, two escaped beavers from the Knepp estate have been caught along the Adur in Sussex, Bramber tragically died after capture but Billie is well, these where originally brought from Scotland. They plan to release two more into the wild later in the year. They have successfully re-introduced nesting white storks there as well. I think 250 white storks are planned for release in Sussex. Knepp is near Horsham Sussex 80 miles from London. Beavers should be able to spread successfully in the SE and maybe into London counties once they get established along the tributaries of the Thames for example. Eastwards rivers like the Cuckmere I imagine would be ideal for them and there are plenty of ditches and dykes as well. Westward you have plenty of good clean chalk steam rivers in Hampshire and Dorset like the Meon, Itchen and Test that I imagine will suit them. All these are not far from Knepp in Sussex or the river Adur where I assume the first releases will be made so, their spread should not be a problem once they get established and with full protection status.
I don't know how much they will be put off by human habitation, I assume they will adapt to some degree. The early released ones must be partially used to humans like Bramber and Billie, maybe their little ones will be wilder.

 

[theartist]

While I like the idea of species making a comeback I find it hard to get very enthusiastic about it when they are reintroduced in a sterile controlled way to environments that have moved on and are now developed and no longer really wild.

It’s a bit like when you see a documentary about say “wild” Rhinos but notice one has a big radio tag attached to it like a car antenna….it spoils it for me and would be like seeing an animal in a Zoo albeit without the obvious cage or bars round it.

I actually have more interest in animals that are hardly living in the “wild” but have at least found their own footing in their environment. Urban foxes for example I would consider more wild than a Beaver plonked in some out of the way UK nature reserve.

The point being that re-wilding (I hate that term!) in places like the South East of England which is the most densely populated place in Europe is basically just a joke. Its never going to return to become some sort of lush animal filled paradise with song birds and bubbling brooks overflowing with life balanced in perfect natural harmony.

More likely it will actually be some fenced off bit of landscaped river (no doubt lost to an angling club) with a wooden walkway round it and lots of “don’t cross the red line” signs for bank holiday crowds to pay £10 a pop to see a “wild” Beaver with a hot dog stand and a sounvenir shop in tow to fleece the gullible.

A well described example of the freak show I mentioned earlier,along with houses being built in every catchment down here a few beavers would make it seem 'wild' to the stockbroker belt folk, even if they do have cute names.

 

[Philip]

"Gnaw-bert" no doubt making the 6 oclock news as he constructs a dam with Canary warf on the Horizon in the background and some enviromental "expert" lauding how the project to re-introduce "wild" Beavers back into Britain were they belong is a great succsess.

 

[nottskev]

Babies and bathwater again. If we're not reacting to preposterous imaginations of charismatic megafauna roaming the suburbs, we're broad-brushing it all as sterile and curatorial, played out for the cameras and in the grip of conservation zealots. There's a world out there of creative thinking about natural environments, and of practical initiatives being undertaken to try to restore, or allow to recover, some of the richness and variety that have been lost. You would imagine, looking at the increasing poverty, of plants, insects, birds, mammals and fish, of some of our regions and landscapes, that we might be favourable to ideas about encouraging a varied and functional, as opposed to a tidy or sterile environment. Or, at least, prepared to abstain from scorn until we'd learnt a bit more. Leaving things alone, in the right places, can be a perfectly valid strategy for natural recovery, and we would do well in joining the many European countries which permit areas of their national parks to go "back to nature". But just leaving everything alone, as has been suggested, won't help - we got where we are via that route.

I don't think this conversation is going anywhere, so I'll leave it to others. Anglers will need to recognise who their natural allies are, and patronise the nature-lovers in the population as tv-viewing morons less, if they hope to see a climate for stemming the tide of chicken shit putting our best river in danger.

 

[Philip]

Intriguing.

It’s a shame the diversity beaver defenders don’t seem to be able to apply the same happy go lucky –give em a chance- attitude to a bucket of Carp.

..but best we don’t go there I guess

 

[no-one in particular]

Just for the record, what I posted are the names given the beavers by the Knepp Estate and the general public, not by me. This was all reported on their website and the Daily Telegraph.

 

[no-one in particular]

I don't think this conversation is going anywhere, so I'll leave it to others. Anglers will need to recognise who their natural allies are, and patronise the nature-lovers in the population as tv-viewing morons less, if they hope to see a climate for stemming the tide of chicken shit putting our best river in danger.

The problem to me is it looks like you have taken this personally against me, you won't call me by name when quite a few times refer to my comments, misquoting, selective quoting, misrepresenting what I said, twisting them untruthfully plus all the little discreet personal put downs and belittling comments, your using all the tricks. I have seen it all before, it's not unusual on here, the arguments cannot be discredited so discredit the owner of them and the argument is never won that way. If you try and beat my arguments and points made and offer credible thought out counter arguments and not try and beat me in a personal way, and deal with them truthfully and honestly, you might have got further, you might have even convinced me; you might have convinced others.
I don't mind but a better debate could have been put, you have wasted an opportunity to put your counterarguments, my disagreeing with you was nothing personal. There is a saying play the ball not the man.

 

[steve2]

One thing struck when talk is about reintroduction it is that we can't even look after the endangered ones that we already have.

 

[no-one in particular]

One thing struck when talk is about reintroduction it is that we can't even look after the endangered ones that we already have.

You have a point but we do have some efforts to do so, white tailed crayfish projects are in place and the water vole protection is on going. Look at the peregrine falcon, we saved that from extinction in this country but their declines were recent, their habitats were still in tact and they were still surviving. There is a project to establish the Chough in the east coast again a bird that still exists in this country. If the beaver was facing extinction now I am sure we would be doing the same for it but 400 years ago there was no knowledge, no internet, no surveys. I doubt the man that killed the last beaver knew it was the last one and a 400 year gap is a long one.
£40,000 was spent on the beaver enclosure at Knepp alone, I would rather £40,000 spent on a white tailed crayfish refuge or a sand lizard project, they are still indigenous natural inhabitants and there are other animals that face serious decline here, even possible extinction that could be helped.

 

[Keith M]

You have a point but we do have some efforts to do so, white tailed crayfish projects are in place and the water vole protection is on going. Look at the peregrine falcon, we saved that from extinction in this country but their declines were recent, their habitats were still in tact and they were still surviving. There is a project to establish the Chough in the east coast again a bird that still exists in this country. If the beaver was facing extinction now I am sure we would be doing the same for it but 400 years ago there was no knowledge, no internet, no surveys. I doubt the man that killed the last beaver knew it was the last one and a 400 year gap is a long one.
£40,000 was spent on the enclosure at Knepp alone, I would rather £40,000 spent on a white tailed crayfish refuge or a sand lizard project, they are still indigenous natural inhabitants and there are other animals that face serious decline here, even possible extinction that could be helped.

Exactly.
before trying to reintroduce animals that were lost to us a long long time ago we should be trying to save our animals and flora which are still indigenous natural inhabitants and currently under threat.

There could be a case for the re-introduction the European beaver which might alleviate some of our flooding in some areas of the country however we need to be able to cull them if they start to slow down rivers that are a little faster flowing and silt free and are supporting animals fish and plants and invertebrates that rely on this type of environment. This is very very important!

If the ‘powers of be’ say that they can’t be culled at all then we are definately better off without them in the first place.

Keith

 

[no-one in particular]

bb

Exactly.
before trying to reintroduce animals that were lost to us a long long time ago we should be trying to save our animals and flora which are still indigenous natural inhabitants and currently under threat.

There could be a case for the re-introduction the European beaver which might alleviate some of our flooding in some areas of the country however we need to be able to cull them if they start to slow down rivers that are a little faster flowing and silt free and are supporting animals fish and plants and invertebrates that rely on this type of environment. This is very very important!

If the ‘powers of be’ say that they can’t be culled at all then we are definately better off without them in the first place.

Keith

If they set up on the Test, Meon, Itchen, Avon, would it slow stretches of them down, would they start to silt up,? Would the mayfly and the trout disappear? I don't know, I am only asking. I think they would have to be removed from these stretches if not culled. I cant see people who pay thousands to fish them being very happy. But I don't know what the situation will be in a few years time and I am not going to try to predict it. Still, at least the bream fishing would improve, always a silver lining; the phrase we know not we do comes to mind but we should know by now, we have been here long enough.

 

[rayner]

One thing we will discover if we do not already know is that nothing we say on the forum will make one jot of a difference.
Folk who are listened to want species introduced so we will have them. On the downside, things that are endangered will stay endangered. Endangered species may draw a tiny bit of assistance, it is way too late, not enough humans care.
Saving our planet. Too late, we have done our best to wipe everything out, including ourselves.
The conclusion is we have no chance.
Best laugh while we can.

 

[theartist]

It's worth discussing nonetheless, lots of arguments for and against are yet to air I'm sure even if they will make no difference. I can imagine them on some of the upper courses of rivers near me and thinking what the impact could be, before we move on to the next species to be re introduced and so on and so on as every one has an impact on something.

It certainly doesn't make us bad, backward or of "preposterous imagination"(insert long word where possible) for these opinions, nor are those arguments "knockdown rooted in misunderstanding and catastrophising"(insert long wor...oh nevermind) we care about all the fauna and flora as well as things fluffy(insert cute short unscientific word), it doesn't mean we have to agree with all things scientific or conservation based when we know how fragile some of our waters are, nor should we be accused of labelling these people by someone labelling us.

 

[no-one in particular]

It certainly won't make any difference to beavers Rayner, they are a fact of life now but, I think discussing it has helped all our understandings, for and against. However, is this the first re-wilding of an extinct animal in this country, to actually be released in the wild that is? It is going to be worth watching closely how it all develops and more relevantly how angling will get on with it and how it affects future re-wilding in this country.

Actually just remembered , I think it was the Great Bustards released onto the Salisbury Plain.

 

[John Aston]

I think the angling community would do a lot of good for its public image if it put its own house in some sort of order rather than sneering at other conservation efforts. We may rail at foreign species but -

- we have been complicit in the spread of carp, zander and barbel to waters where they were never originally found

- we have introduced alien species like gudgeon while illegally using them as livebait in Scottish waters

- we have stocked sturgeon and catfish into small stillwaters without , I suspect, any environmental impact statement being carried out first

We drop litter by the skip load and some of us even want to cull otters. Not a vote winner , that one, and you have to wonder how tone deaf some anglers are even to consider this '

We pretend to know and care about natural history but (copyright W Shakespeare ) most anglers wouldn't know a hawk from a handsaw and some of us even like to buy lasers to frighten off wildfowl .

And depressingly , despite our numbers, many of us will find any excuse we can not to join any body which represents our interests , while doing two parts of b****er all to put anything back into the sport

 

[no-one in particular]

And depressingly , despite our numbers, many of us will find any excuse we can not to join any body which represents our interests , while doing two parts of b****er all to put anything back into the sport

Why don't anglers join, eradicate the excuses and I am sure they would in big numbers. The fee is one I am sure, have a bargain basement fee of a fiver or even a free sort of basic joining and then I am sure millions would join. They could make money from them one way or another. I don't think it is all apathy. They complicated it all too much, I think they lost sight of the rank and file and lost them! that's where the numbers are.

 

[steve2]

I would not rejoin the AT at any cost, I did not agree with with their stand with angling and Covid and told them so. Also have never answered any of the emails I sent them they seem bit like a secret society when it comes to members.
When it comes to putting things back into the sport I have lost track of the amount of time and energy I have put in over the last 50 years. I was a club chairman at 20 because no one would take on the job. Spent 100's hours on work parties, it's now time to put my feet up.

There are many other like me that have put many hours back into the sport and are never heard about.