For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter

thecrow

Well-known member
I sadly concur with the historic ineptitude Graham. I certainly care but did not sign the BS sponsored Petition and as you know first hand I fish some of the affected rivers.

I've seriously thought about it since the petition first appeared and was most definitely wavering with that initial choice. But now I'm totally convinced the petition is naive in its aim and wording and will potentially set back any progress even further. My opinion is further reinforced by the nature of subsequent comments from some of the leading voices, especially recently by Steve Pope. I have a lot of time for Steve ever since I met him on the banks of the Severn years ago. But on this one, he's so far off the mark it's almost funny but sadly isn't.

I have no doubt whatsoever the signature numbers will grow but I'm expecting nothing more than the normal Westminster response when petitions reach this first stage: an acknowledgement and then a response generated by a consultation emanating from a nondescript Committee Room in the bowels of Parliament saying "non-lethal methods are already in existence". Anyone expecting a full debate in The House, and there seems to be a few, is going to be severely disappointed.

What progress is that Neil? if its the moving of an otter from the inside of a fenced fishery to god knows where imo that's lip service not progress, it moves the problem elsewhere and its entirely possible that by the time one of the very few that is licenced to trap otters arrives the fishery will have suffered lots of stock damage, certainly if an otter has found its way inside a fence it will have taken stock from the fishery before it is discovered.
 

jasonbean1

Well-known member
Could there be a scent that would deter otters taking up residence, the sent of a dog otter maybe; being very territorial would this deter other otters from moving in; could the scent be produced artificially? Something put in the water that otters could not tolerate, non harmful and non detectable by humans.
I think ultimately deterrent will be the only way forward on non fenced waters as daft as it sounds, whether that's scents, mannequin's of other otters and noises...all those types of things will have to trialled and considered before the discussion moves on...again who's going to fund all this?
 

The bad one

Well-known member
Can I clear up some misconceptions about trapping otters and moving them. To trap any otters “legally” you have to be licensed by DEFRA. To gain that licence you have to be a fit and proper person and do a one day course, which is done in Scotland and there was in October only one person licensed by DEFRA to be a trainer and he's based in Scotland and runs the courses.

Again of October last year there was only 5 people nationally licensed to trap otters in the UK, 3 of which are members of my club (no I'm not one of them) all 3 are mates of mine and why I know so much about the system, as it is them who have told me how it works. To trap them it must only be done on a otter fenced water to remove them from within the fence. You can not set a trap anywhere else in the wild to capture an otter.
Once caught in the authorised DEFRA trap within the fencing, you must remove the otter in the trap to outside the fenced water, open the trap and let it go back into the wild.
You can not remove any otter any further than just outside the fenced off water, to do so you commit an offence under the licence conditions and the Wildlife and Countryside Act.

So any talk of removing a so-called problem otter legally is wrong and is not allowed under the licensing conditions.
As we have reach the point where the circle joins Graham, I'll repost this.

Oh and give the Bullsh1t Society wants a non-lethal way of dealing with otters, how many licensed trappers have they got to assist them in this aim? one for every region they have a regional branch? One for every compass point? One for the north, one for the south? One nationally? One at all? Well as of last October they had none, jack sh1t, nadda, diddly squat. Some explaining me thinks to nasty civil servants when they start asking questions of them.
 
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thecrow

Well-known member
As we have reach the point where the circle joins Graham, I'll repost this.

Oh and give the Bullsh1t Society wants a non-lethal way of dealing with otters, how many licensed trappers have they got to assist them in this aim? one for every region they have a regional branch? One for every compass point? One for the north, one for the south? One nationally? One at all? Well as of last October they had none, jack sh1t, nadda, diddly squat. Some explaining me thinks to nasty civil servants when they start asking questions of them.

The lack of licenced trappers is a flaw in the trap and release system that needs improving, can you tell me where these trapped otters are released after trapping?
 

jasonbean1

Well-known member
I don't now how the system works or if its voluntary, I doubt with a well made otter fence many are getting into commercial fisheries so 5 people trapping may be enough.
 

The bad one

Well-known member
:eek:mg: Oh dear oh dear. Any club can apply for a trapping licence Including the Bullsh1t Society and pay for a responsible person to gain the trapping licence by attending the course. The licence per se is not as yet a commercial venture and there are national trappers you pay to come and trap an otter that has got into a fenced fishery. The 3 mates of mine who did the course did it and do it voluntary for the club they are in. The club paid for the training course and licence they got.
The other two as I understand it came through the same way Ie via a club. So as the civil servants will ask why hasn't the BS got people trained up as others are if they are as concerned as they claim to be?

As to it being a waste of time? There are many reasons why otters might get inside a fence
You put up a sh1t fence....You fault an otter get in.
Otter digs under or climbs over the fence. Your fault for doing a poor job or allowing a contractor to do one.
Gate keeps getting left open by members. Club, water owner needs to take very firm action to stop this happening, loss of card or banning from the venue by the owner.
Antis deliberately coming in the night and opening the gates to let the otter(s) in. You need to take affirmative action to stop this happening by covert actions and arrests for it, it's criminal damage.

How so is it a failure of the Trapping/release system then Graham? Given that to trap and in many circumstances handle a protected species (Otters are btw despite what the Bullsh1t Society may say) you need to follow protocols set down in law for contact with them.
 

The bad one

Well-known member
Oh and BTW we are still waiting for the Bullsh1t Society to tell us what none-lethal methods they are talking about that arn't already covered in this thread and elsewhere, are we not?
Their spokesperson who communicated by Edict Statement on here, did a Dell Shannon when it got a bit difficult for him!
 

thecrow

Well-known member
Because it merely moves a problem elsewhere.

I don't understand why you are so aggressive towards the Barbel Society you seem to have an axe to grind with them? how do you know that getting people trained and licenced to trap otters is not on the Barbel Societies agenda?

Like it or not the Barbel society have chosen to go down this route, if you don't agree with that fine but I and many others do and I would bet that most of them like me are not members of the Barbel Society.

Quiet a few posts ago a member of FM posted on this thread and asked this

Is it worth dedicating a thread on FM to a kind of Save Our Rivers (or whatever) theme? Would it be useful is members, some of whom are clearly well-versed in angling and environmental politics, could post links to useful docs, news on related issues, material from groups with compatible aims, contacts for people and organisations, advice on how to lobby influential people or organisations, templates for letters of complaint and concern..... a kind of campaigning archive and toolkit.

Not one reply to it which once again shows the "I'm alright jack" attitude of a lot of anglers who will be the loudest complainers when their fishing becomes affected.

I have signed the petition as have thousands of others, I support the petition as do thousands of others and if it has done one thing it has made more people aware of the problems that are being caused by otters on some waters.

It has already been said by those that have organised this petition that the none lethal methods they will propose will be published in time, I am prepared to wait until then happy in the knowledge that whatever they are they will not involve the killing of otters unlike Badgers which are also a protected species.

I think you will find that SP left this forum because of an insult contained in a post, he was perfectly within his rights to do that, the insult was removed after he left
 

steve2

Well-known member
I agree with you and I have thought from the start of thread that there are people using it in a vindictive way to attack others and societies that may have upset them at sometime in the past.
 

The bad one

Well-known member
How on earth do you work that one out, it will move the problem elsewhere? When you must release the animal "directly outside" the fenced water. Otters are territorial and the water is within its territory.


No axe to grind with them, never been a member never want to be.That said I'm not prepared to stand by and watch them Bullsh1t their way and take angling, down the road to government looking like headcases and loonies base on made up half truths or untruths of Otters will eat your Children......Yeah right they will, and I've got 10 unicorns in training in a field with pixies dancing around it!

As to their agenda well I quoted earlier what Mr Breakspear said on S Pope's FB page to someone when he said it should be a cull. ......wait until we get through the door first!

And we'll tell you what our None-lethal methods are later.............Er when we've thought of some.... perhaps, may be, possibly..........
And that's the way to mount a so-called serious petition. BIG big rolling eyes, much the same as the civil servants when they respond to the very poorly present and written petition.
 
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Peter Jacobs

Moderator
Staff member
I have no axe to grind with the BS whatsoever, and was a member for a few years myself. In fact SP an I have been friends for a good number of years and agree on a number of issues, jut not Otters or the poorly constructed petition.
 

Peter Jacobs

Moderator
Staff member
According to the rules of these online petitions at 10k signatures a government reply is due
A friend who used to teach EU Law has suggested how the reply might be worded:


The Barbel Society is awaiting a response now from the government to it's petition calling for the 'non-lethal' control of otters on UK rivers now it has over 10,000 signatures.....let me suggest what that response will be and inject a slice of realism into the debate...


"Dear Mr Breakspear,

Otters are protected by the EC Habitats Directive, which is transposed into domestic law through the Conservation (Natural Habitats, &c.) Regulations 1994. The latter are hereafter referre...d to as 'the Habitats Regulations'. Under the Habitats Regulations, otters are classed as "European Protected Species" and therefore given the highest level of species protection.

The Conservation (Natural Habitats, &c.) Amendment (Scotland) Regulations 2007 enhanced this protection such that, in summary, it is now illegal to:
deliberately or recklessly kill, injure or take (capture) an otter
deliberately or recklessly disturb or harass an otter
damage, destroy or obstruct access to a breeding site or resting place of an otter (i.e an otter shelter)

Thus, otter shelters are legally protected whether or not an otter is present.


So when I say the petition it is a non-starter, I think the above clarifies fully......."

PS: this is posted with his prior permission
 

thecrow

Well-known member
Then nothing is achieved, how do you know that the otter removed from inside the fence is "within its territory" it could be a new kid on the block in another otters territory, what you have posted is an assumption.



If you have no axe to grind why not use the title of the organisation, they don't look like head cases to me they look more like anglers trying to do something that they and thousands of others see as a problem to me while other scoff from the side lines, No one and I mean no one knows what the solution to the problems caused by otters will be, and if you will forgive me your stance of not being prepared to stand by and well no need to quote the rest is rather arrogant, have you a mandate from anglers that don't support the petition? I don't know where the "otters will eat your children" comment is from, its certainly hasn't come from any of the petition organisers as far as I know, what was said by SP was that something needs to be done before a child gets bitten, are you totally sure that couldn't happen? I have seen video of an otter running down a street, could have been running because of fear and a frightened animal can be a dangerous one.



I doubt that was a serious comment as Lol Breakspear is no fool, he would realise what damage could be done to the petition by such a comment. Iirc its the PAG that would like a cull not the Barbel Society.


I am prepared to wait for those to be published, the fact that it was said before the petition is testament to the fact that they have something in mind, I am happy that it has nothing to do with killing otters, others it seems are also prepared to wait and see. If they are not feasible and the petition doesn't achieve its aim then it doesn't but to fail after trying is imo better than not trying at all.
 
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thecrow

Well-known member
Peter what you have posted is an assumption although an educated one neither you nor your friend know for sure what the response will be so your claim that it clarifies fully is false it doesn't and wont until everyone knows what the response has been, it could be that he is entirely correct but I will say what I have said throughout this thread without trying nothing can be achieved If the petition fails it fails but those involved in it will be able to say that they and the thousands that have signed it have tried while other that haven't tried to do anything about it will say I told you so, I know which group I would rather be in.



To be frank I am amazed that you have gone to so much trouble to poo poo this petition,
 

Peter Jacobs

Moderator
Staff member
As you say, it is an educated assumption with its basis in UK Law which is I turn based on EU Law.
Even if, (and it is a huge "if") the government wanted to align with this petition it is not possible.. in Law

As for spending a lot of time to rally against this petition, well, no, it really hasn't.
 

markg

Well-known member
As you say, it is an educated assumption with its basis in UK Law which is I turn based on EU Law.
Even if, (and it is a huge "if") the government wanted to align with this petition it is not possible.. in Law

As for spending a lot of time to rally against this petition, well, no, it really hasn't.
Unless the law can be changed due to public pressure, petition, new knowledge....
 

jasonbean1

Well-known member
seems the signatures on the petition are bottoming out now 10,200 'll be surprised if it gets to 20,000 by the end of it.
 

markg

Well-known member
seems the signatures on the petition are bottoming out now 10,200 'll be surprised if it gets to 20,000 by the end of it.
Looks that way but its not a bad bit of democracy to have this petition thing; try it in some countries and see how far it would get!. 10.200 who rightly or wrongly think the law should be changed. It might not be a lot depending on what you weigh it against and it might be a whistle in the wind but they have a right to a shot at it. And laws cannot be left in perpetuity just because it is law. Times, trends, knowledge etc change and sometimes laws need to change with them. The laws Peter states were probably made when otters where in serious decline, now they're not so maybe the laws pertaining need a re-think.
 
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