For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter

[The bad one]

The fact is most anglers won't care about otters until they see a specimen fish with its liver ripped out on the bank, or their river is left with a few percent of the fish that were once there.

The large rivers will probably manage. The smaller rivers like the Bristol Avon, the Kennet, the Ouse have suffered.

They are sick rivers Graham E not because of otters but because of man and *hite that's pumped into them by MAN! Over 30 years ago the NRA as it was then, produced a report on the B. Avon which stated during the summer at NSL the river was made up of 80% of discharge treated sewage water. That level has probably gone up since with increased development and increased domestic usage.

When there's naff all but big fish left in a river because of its sickness, then yes all the otter has left to feed on is those big fish like it or not.

Ultimately those fish, even with no otters present, will dieout and because of its sickness there's nothing and/or very little being spawned to replace them. Those rivers are then dead river because they are not a sustainable system.

 

[108831]

150 otters nationwide nationally may sound inconsequential, but working on 3 miles per female,5-6 per male that is a minimum of 450 extra miles,on top of the successful spread otters have made already,obviously overlapping male/female territories have to be taken into consideration.One more questionable point could be,that if otters become more successful would third territories become smaller,logic says as much...

I'm really sorry to hear Steve Pope has bowed out on FM,pressures on someone in his position can be great and he and the BS are there to be shot at(I've done it myself),it can wear a little thin and I wish him well,even though he cannot reply.

 

[thecrow]

No Graham we don't have that baseline data via the WFD not to the level I'm talking about. It doesn't look in detail at water chemistry and pollutants, all it does is look at NPK and the level contained in the test water once or twice a year. Under the type of baseline study data I'm referring to, that 17% would be lucky to make 2%



And you believe that? Only last week this government vote to drop the Human Rights Charter when we leave the EU. Now what did they say only a few months ago? All EU law/ regs/directives will be transposed into UK. HRC didn't last long did it? In fact it didn't last until we left before they voted it out and every other law, reg,directive they don't like will go the same way. And mark my words, Environmental law is right up in the firing line.



I don't disagree with what you say here but nobody gave a rats ar*e about plastics in the oceans 12-18 months ago. This government couldn't act quick enough to be seen to be doing something about it to try and entice the young environmentally aware voters. Oh and where does most of the plastics in the UK come from that enters our coastal water? Oh yeah down the rivers!



Like all national/global bodies they have a limited pot of money to use on campaigns one things clear by hell have they made a difference as far as oceanic plastic is concerned. Correct the general Public don't and why we need those alliances and skills with those bodies to bring it into the public's mindset.



If the BS are well aware of the other problems then they've done ****** all about them. Out of 21 points listed in their conservation, research and lobbying it isn't until 3rd and 4th from the bottom before they address it 20% is banging on about Otters. I have to say Graham a large part of Anglers don't know about the threats of desecrate pollution to rivers and stillwaters and that's based on talking to anglers when out bailiffing. The vast majority give you the 10 mile gaze, as if you've got a second head grown on your shoulders.



I disagree entirely with statement! We have already none-lethal measure at out disposal and I've been a pains above pointing them out. So if the BS weren't aware of them then they are even more misguided in starting this petition than even I thought. And if they were why start it? Unless there is and ulterior and misleading motive to it. And there Mr Breakspear by his posting on Facebook (as quoted above) may have given the game away.

The public have not forgot about the badger cull, there are Badger groups out every night during the culling period to try and disrupt the shooting of them.



Yes at the cost of the loss of that public support for angling, that as far as I and many others are concerned is a price we are not prepared to pay as it make us a sitting target for the antis and a banning of the sport I love and have done for 60 years.



Rather a defeatest point of view there Graham! It will and can with the right tactical campaign! The threats to human health will only get greater as the population hits 70 million over the next 10 years and that population become even more reliant on extracted river water. Polluted water that they technologically have great difficulty in purfying and extracting many of the pollutants from. It is the gift that will keep giving to the right tatical canpaign.

Phil I could answer your post with counter arguments but to be honest I just haven't got the energy this morning.

Some things like diffuse pollution we will agree on others we wont the petition being one of them, perhaps a better campaign would be one that informs the public of what they are actually drinking would wake government up as it would cost them votes and that's all they care about.

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Deleted. Double post

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Phil. Couldn't agree more. As you are probably aware I have often pointed the EA and others bodies at the research undertaken many years ago to the asexulation of fish within the Loddon catchment.


Reported many times the complete discharge of raw sewerage including tampons from the wargrave works.

However, the sudden and rapid decline of barbel numbers over a very short periods like 2-3 years on a number of smaller rivers is NOT down to water quality.

The rapid decline coincided with the first otter sightings.
That is a fact.

 

[bullet]

Talking of rivers, are these options a possibility?

1. That anyone whos been around for a while has fished in times when fish populations were artificially high due to the lack of Otter predation.

2. Now the Otters are back, and with the pollution stresses, its a double whammy for the fish.

IMO, in the south west, the biggest issue by far is habitat degredation caused by agricultural pollution and sewage treatment works.
There are a large quantity of out falls which du mp untreated sewage straight into the river, allegedly only at times of high flow.
One I have the misfortune to pass regularly will have a fetid area underneath it with all the associated sewage litter, at any time of year.
After high water the branches of trees downstream are covered in sanitary towels, etc.
Its been reported many times, but it seems that it's perfectly legal.
In the meantime, lots more housing is being built in the area so I can only see the problem getting worse.

 

[rayner]

Talking of rivers, are these options a possibility?

1. That anyone whos been around for a while has fished in times when fish populations were artificially high due to the lack of Otter predation.

2. Now the Otters are back, and with the pollution stresses, its a double whammy for the fish.

IMO, in the south west, the biggest issue by far is habitat degredation caused by agricultural pollution and sewage treatment works.
There are a large quantity of out falls which du mp untreated sewage straight into the river, allegedly only at times of high flow.
One I have the misfortune to pass regularly will have a fetid area underneath it with all the associated sewage litter, at any time of year.
After high water the branches of trees downstream are covered in sanitary towels, etc.
Its been reported many times, but it seems that it's perfectly legal.
In the meantime, lots more housing is being built in the area so I can only see the problem getting worse.

I agree you highlight far more important issues, Otters are a much lighter problem if indeed they really are a problem.

 

[thecrow]

1. That anyone whos been around for a while has fished in times when fish populations were artificially high due to the lack of Otter predation.

How can the fish populations have been artificially high due to lack of predation by the otter?

The problems with our rivers other than otters that have been mentioned throughout this thread and blamed for the decrease in fish stocks were there before the otter reintroductions and yet stocks of fish were higher than after the reintroductions. Otters were imo the straw that broke the camels back.

 

[Bluenose]

How can the fish populations have been artificially high due to lack of predation by the otter?

Perhaps it was the case that we lived through a time when river fish, barbel especially, were getting ridiculously large due to a lack of otter predation? Maybe the larger, bloated fish on tiny rivers are now under more pressure, and easier to catch for an apex pred like an otter? Just a thought?

On the Upper Weaver, I saw my first otter in 2013, watched it take a 12 oz chub, saw it (or another) again in 2015. The chub fishing has been excellent the last few winters. Doesn't prove a thing of course, but in my experience, the otter is not the bogeyman in a well balanced system.

All told, and again just my opinion, but the main problems in rivers, lakes and canals in this country start at the other end of the food chain. The aforementioned 'P' word, spawning beds being silted up due to farming practices, or groundwater being saturated with phosphate is absolutely critical to all freshwater habitats and all freshwater species, yet this seems to be something that many are blatantly ignoring, or perhaps are just blissfully unaware of?

All told, a lake the colour of pea soup, the strange absence of crucian carp these days or a duckweed covered pond with massively reduced biodiversity, simply doesn't prompt the same sort of reactions as a fish with it's head torn off.

 

[nottskev]

This thread has brought into focus a number of things. There are well-informed anglers here with sincere takes on the state of our rivers and concerns for their futures. But while we may might agree on a laundry list of damaging factors, there's no consensus about priorities in seeking to oppose the causes of damage to rivers and fish stocks, or about methods to pursue changes that might improve things.

If you don't have a particular standpoint, and you just have a general sense of concern that the rivers you know all seem “wrong” in one way or another – one top-heavy with big old fish of one species, but lacking another common species altogether; another, once prolific, seemingly barren for miles save for game fish; another still too polluted to support decent stocks of anything - it's very hard to know what to do, given that moaning or attacking differently-minded anglers won't help.

I get concerned to find predators, including “new” ones increasing, but I can see why trying to go in hard against otters is a hard sell and maybe the wrong end of the stick.. I followed up The Crow's posts by reading about the progress towards EU WFD standards, and I was shocked to see how dismal it has been, but I've no idea what to do about that. I'd like to believe a coalition of environmentally-minded groups will emerge and cheerlead a public demand for better water industry management and river protection, but I'm far from confident about that and I'm not clear how our concerns and actions could feed into it.
In short, I feel concerned and frustrated, but helpless. And a bit less well-informed about the whole scene than I should be.

I don't imagine any one petition, campaign, prosecution or action of any sort is the answer. If anything will help, I imagine a kind of groundswell of information and opinion that makes itself known to the public, the government and its agencies, and makes it harder to ignore concerns and keep the issues affecting river quality quietly off the agenda.

Is it worth dedicating a thread on FM to a kind of Save Our Rivers (Call it what you like) theme? Would it be useful if members, some of whom are clearly well-versed in angling and environmental politics, could post links to useful docs, news on related issues, material from groups with compatible aims, updates on any positive developments, contacts for people and organisations, advice on how to lobby influential people or organisations, templates for letters of complaint and concern.....etc etc A kind of campaigning archive and toolkit. Members could decide for themselves if they are interested and what they are prepared to support, and it might prompt something beyond falling out with each other.

It's not what I'm mostly interested in – I'm happy, as most probably are, just to fish – but I'm looking at a roomful of tackle here, all of it pretty useless unless I've got access to good fishing.

I'm not going to be at all offended if it's regarded as a bad idea.

 

[silvers]

As a trained scientist, I definitely line up with the bad one on this topic ... the petition is a misguided attempt to raise the profile of problems with our rivers that is extremely likely to backfire.

Anyway - on to my anecdote !

On the upper Great Ouse, my limited experience is that population explosions of species have come and gone. In the sixties and Seventies it was a roach and dace river in the main. I'm told that in Billy Lane's time people would walk along to see a chub weighed in, they were so rare.
Through the 80s and early 90s it was mainly a chub river - with an explosion of small roach and dace in the very early 90s that disappeared inside 4 years.
The Barbel were only ever a side story for me - in fact some people blamed them for eating the eggs spawned by the chub!
From the mid 90s the chub started to disappear ..... and in fact most areas were not match fished for over a decade. But then about 8 years ago the roach and dace returned in massive numbers in many stretches with some flow. In the summer they are in every peg, but come the winter the fish shoal up very tight.
Since the 80s the river has been gin clear in summer ..... so over the years the weed growth has got a lot worse (possibly also due to fertilizer run-off?). The last dredging was in about 1985 (iirc) .....
Furthermore - all rivers seem to be a lot less fishable in winter (Jan - March) than they were 20 years ago - but low and stale all summer.

Can I link any of these population changes to the Ouse otters?? Not obviously.

 

[thecrow]

So your explanation for stretches of river being devoid of fish such as the lower Derbyshire derwent is? this has happened over the last few years and has coincided with otters being present where they were previously none, matches that were fished on it no longer are, the reason.......... there are no fish. The derwent has always been a clear weedy river so that hasn't changed to cause it in fact it was always better fished in darkness because of it.

The lack of fish in some rivers cannot be just put down to cycles in the populations of different species. So what is it?

If we all agree that there are many factors affecting the health of our rivers (and there are) then why if these problems existed pre otter reintroductions and there were plenty of fish in the rivers why have they now disappeared?

Just one other point, the reintroductions all took place in the otters natural habitat, if they haven't affected fish populations why have they moved onto still waters and even been seen on streets during the daytime?

 

[thecrow]

As a trained scientist, I definitely line up with the bad one on this topic ... the petition is a misguided attempt to raise the profile of problems with our rivers that is extremely likely to backfire

How do you propose raise the profile of problems in our rivers, misguided? sorry not a word that should be used about anglers doing whatever they can to save our riverine creatures.

 

[108831]

Perhaps it was the case that we lived through a time when river fish, barbel especially, were getting ridiculously large due to a lack of otter predation? Maybe the larger, bloated fish on tiny rivers are now under more pressure, and easier to catch for an apex pred like an otter? Just a thought?

On the Upper Weaver, I saw my first otter in 2013, watched it take a 12 oz chub, saw it (or another) again in 2015. The chub fishing has been excellent the last few winters. Doesn't prove a thing of course, but in my experience, the otter is not the bogeyman in a well balanced system.

All told, and again just my opinion, but the main problems in rivers, lakes and canals in this country start at the other end of the food chain. The aforementioned 'P' word, spawning beds being silted up due to farming practices, or groundwater being saturated with phosphate is absolutely critical to all freshwater habitats and all freshwater species, yet this seems to be something that many are blatantly ignoring, or perhaps are just blissfully unaware of?

All told, a lake the colour of pea soup, the strange absence of crucian carp these days or a duckweed covered pond with massively reduced biodiversity, simply doesn't prompt the same sort of reactions as a fish with it's head torn off.

I'm sorry,but your first paragraph is imo misguided,smaller rivers are as important as larger ones and why is it that they are bloated old fish,our rivers used to have good populations of lesser fish,sadly because the Ouse produced big barbel,chub and perch a certain manner or mood (jealosy perhaps)was taken against it and rivers like it,these days the river is a poor relation,I'm not in the slightest jealous or envious of others fishing on their rivers,but I would like my river to return to some sort of normality,a semblance of its former self,that's all,otters eat 6-8lb barbel,4lb chub and 1lb perch,as is seen by carcasses at riverside,many of the big fish were not really old,some were still growing.

 

[thecrow]

Deleted.............

 

[thecrow]

Perhaps it was the case that we lived through a time when river fish, barbel especially, were getting ridiculously large due to a lack of otter predation?

The fish I used to catch in the Derbyshire Derwent were never fat or bloated they were always what I like to term "proper Barbel shape" they carried none of the belly weight that some fish from rivers such as the Trent do, they have all gone even though there were smaller fish coming up, they have gone since otters appeared on the river. Coincidence? I don't believe in them.

 

[108831]

On the upper Great Ouse, my limited experience is that population explosions of species have come and gone. In the sixties and Seventies it was a roach and dace river in the main. I'm told that in Billy Lane's time people would walk along to see a chub weighed in, they were so rare.
Through the 80s and early 90s it was mainly a chub river - with an explosion of small roach and dace in the very early 90s that disappeared inside 4 years.
The Barbel were only ever a side story for me - in fact some people blamed them for eating the eggs spawned by the chub!
From the mid 90s the chub started to disappear ..... and in fact most areas were not match fished for over a decade. But then about 8 years ago the roach and dace returned in massive numbers in many stretches with some flow. In the summer they are in every peg, but come the winter the fish shoal up very tight.
Since the 80s the river has been gin clear in summer ..... so over the years the weed growth has got a lot worse (possibly also due to fertilizer run-off?). The last dredging was in about 1985 (iirc) .....
Furthermore - all rivers seem to be a lot less fishable in winter (Jan - March) than they were 20 years ago - but low and stale all summer.

Can I link any of these population changes to the Ouse otters?? Not obviously.

Alex,as I have a few(few indeed)years on you I remember the times up to the 70's and as you say chub were like hens teeth,big weights of gudgeon won matches,in the 80/90's matches were won with chub in the main,possibly bream,but the roach(and quality ones at that)were there,I and a few mates were getting 40/50lb bags on tares,regularly,in spite of everyone bemoaning their absence,then everything slowed, in all of the years I fished the Ouse mink were hunting fish and birds on the river,without any noticeable difference in quality of fishing,since the boom in crayfish,followed rapidly by otters being successful a crashing decline ensued,obviously not helped by agriculture practices affecting water quality,if otters eat fish daily to survive,then fish populations are affected, also the same result occurs if crayfish eat eggs and fry,our river will never recover if ALL issues are not worked on,with some urgency,or maybe as ive said earlier,we adopt an ostrich defence strategy...

 

[silvers]

How do you propose raise the profile of problems in our rivers, misguided? sorry not a word that should be used about anglers doing whatever they can to save our riverine creatures.

Misguided - having or showing faulty judgement or reasoning.

The reasoning is faulty as otters are not the sole (or major) contributory factor to fishery decline .... as evidenced by healthy rivers with otters and unhealthy without.
The judgement is faulty as this approach is not the way to win arguments in British politics. The wildlife groups will have us over a barrel.

I truly understand the sentiment and feeling behind this - but know enough about how things work to understand that this can only backfire.

 

[thecrow]

Misguided - having or showing faulty judgement or reasoning.

The reasoning is faulty as otters are not the sole (or major) contributory factor to fishery decline .... as evidenced by healthy rivers with otters and unhealthy without.
The judgement is faulty as this approach is not the way to win arguments in British politics. The wildlife groups will have us over a barrel.

I truly understand the sentiment and feeling behind this - but know enough about how things work to understand that this can only backfire.

I know the meaning of the word but thank you for your explanation.

The point I posed about rivers with problems having bigger populations of fish before reintroductions even with all their other problems is one that so far no one has given a reason for.

 

[108831]

We are already in fear of every other group outside of angling,a more apathetic shower than anglers there has never been, its a miracle any ever go night fishing,as we seem scared of our own shadows,with it seemingly getting worse year on year...