Gutted

[Titus]

DC you raise some interesting points but all the problems you have mentioned are long term high recourse problems and from a policing perspective the results are difficult to quantify.
Perhaps the police need educating about the laws of poaching and fish theft. If it is seen as a low recourse, easy clear up crime the new target driven police force will be all over it like a rash.

 

[flightliner]

Senior police officers and politicians, both the same breed in my book, just tell "them" what they want to hear, don't rock the boat.[/quot

UKIP to em all !!!:thumbs:

 

[dorsetandchub]

I'm not sure they would, mate - not if it opened them to accusations of targetting a particular section of society and, especially, creating the public mindset that they care about carp and poaching enough to do something about it but sexual exploitation and gang and knife culture can be left to take care of itself.

As the Blanker said, I feel it's as though senior police feel they are keeping enough of a lid on a problem by not acknowledging and publicising it.

I doubt terribly much that's too much comfort if it's your community or, God forbid, your family directly affected by these problems.

My heart truly goes out to kids in too many London boroughs who can't cross a road because that's another gang's turf - and that's seen as accepted, because nobody in authority will say "I have a problem with that, it's not good enough, I've seen too many kids in this community die - we need to stop this, now!!"

To be base, the horrendous inter racial murder of Stephen Lawrence still has ramifications twenty years on - but there are 150 - 200 Stephens every year being killed in London and no one is asking why we seem willing and able to accept this and remain comfortable in our silence.

Well, you know what? I'm asking. I wanna see those kids go to College - not to the Cemetery!

 

[richiekelly]

I have no problem with the Trust, they're trying to do something - that makes them OK in my book and, as I and many others have said on here, they ARE all we have...

I just worry that there is no willingness, no mind, at ANY level, to admit to these problems, to acknowledge them, to draw up a plan and implement that plan.

If that IS the case, at what level will fish theft be held to be a major social issue? Not terribly highly, I suspect, unfortunately.

Even though I have some problems with them I applaud what they are trying to do but as I said I just hope they are not being taken in by others for the sake of political spin, stopping fish theft is not a vote getter if it was perhaps things would be different.

 

[dorsetandchub]

I think I can only concur with you there.

 

[tiinker]

Gents,


I'm sorry but the following is my humble opinion 2p worth on this and, I believe, needs to be said.

There IS a problem with fish theft in the UK and it IS largely fuelled by immigrants from Eastern Europe. That said, however, in EVERY ethnic grouping in the UK where people get together in sufficient numbers and then establish heirarchies, trade and the like - all sorts of "problems" will occur but often, sometimes based on beliefs held elsewhere a "stand out" problem can flourish.

The main problem with this problem (clumsy, but I liked it) is that there is a powerful and growing PC lobby who will not allow its acknowledgement because, to do so would, in their minds, establish cultural differences and a possible tribal mentality.

Sadly, however, the reverse is the thunderous. If a particular section of society does not comment on a problem, other sections will be tempted to assume they accept it and maybe do not see it as a problem.

We all know there is a massive (truly massive) knife crime and gang culture problem in London but when Sir Paul Condon tried to raise this issue, he was publicly castigated and branded a racist. Ask the people whose kids are being killed and maimed - running away from and refusing to name a problem does not solve it. It leads only to apathy and indifference. If a certain section of society has a problem, then the answer must and can only come from that section. An externally imposed answer will never be truly accepted and will, in time, only become a part of that problem.

The recent police investigation into the grooming and sexual exploitation of white girls in Rochdale is a class example of this. The girls were treated as white trash, nobody took their claims seriously but, conversely, could it be that nobody wanted to lift the lift on what quickly became apparent as a community based problem. Nobody wanted to be the first to state that a particular community had a problem and risk losing their career and pension rights when the usual accusations of racism and fascism were bandied about.

Many of the Eastern Europeans here are not long term residents and have no plans to be. They are here, quite legitimately, to make some money in, maybe, a five year period and then go home with a lump sum and buy a home or set up a business. Fine, great planning, no problem with that - but what that plan MIGHT tempt someone to think is that "I'm not staying anyway so why not push the boundaries a little, behave in a way I wouldn't dream of back home".

The "offences" committed may differ but, conceptually, what is the difference between someone doing that and British kids going to Ibiza and screwing, drinking and puking their way through their hard earned (or less so)?

People do behave differently when not in their own back yard. That said, there ARE some amazing EE's here now who have seized the opportunities they were afforded and have treated their new host country with respect and dignity. It genuinely takes all sorts.

Sorry to prattle on but, in short, if there can be yawning community based problems which even multiple, dozens of homicides, cannot lead us to raise and acknowledge then, seriously, is anyone, other than the angling fraternity, going to raise issue with fish theft?

If people are too scared or apathetic to care enough about dead or sexually exploitated youngsters, will they voice their concerns about missing fish?

Sorry, but I have my doubts. I think we're on our own here. I'm not saying that we give up and accept fish thefts but I do think we need to be aware of the scale of both public and authoritarian apathy as to what we see as a major issue.

The best for 2014 to all.

So in short you are saying nothing can be done is that right is that what you are saying. If That is the case you can look forward to a very bleak future and in my book you deserve it.

---------- Post added at 00:45 ---------- Previous post was at 00:36 ----------

Even though I have some problems with them I applaud what they are trying to do but as I said I just hope they are not being taken in by others for the sake of political spin, stopping fish theft is not a vote getter if it was perhaps things would be different.

If we wait for the power that be to sort it out we will be waiting for ever If we do not stand up for what is ours then we will lose it to a bunch of interlopers who do not give a t0ss for our way of life they are here for themselves and what they can get and more are on the way in a couple of days that is a fact.

 

[mick b]

Okay Guys, let us get back to THE problem or OUR CHALLANGE.

English born anglers do not take freshwater fish for eating.
The removal of fish for eating is entirely carried out by immigrants.
The majority of new immigrants are 20-30years old and almost always male.
Many are unskilled from rural backgrounds, many have had military training.

These immigrants are here for money, nothing else.
Many of them want to send money 'home', so they try and live a cheaply as possible and make as much money as possible.
Many run illegal cars, use non-UK licences and will take anything they can dispose of quickly?
Because of their backgrounds many are highly skilled at non-recreational fish catching.
Many are also very good anglers, some are exceptional and can teach us a thing or two.

A few guys here and there taking fish IS NOT the major problem.
It is the traps and set-lines we all need to be on the look-out for, these are the real problem for our fisheries and for the future of our fishing.
These devices can empty a water without anyone knowing whats going on.

Eg: I have found and removed upwards of sixty set lines from one 150yard section of the River Itchen in the past two years, two just a week ago.
Over the past four years all of the river Carp have disappeared from the same section of river, plus the Barbel population appears to have dropped.

But the real menace is the fish traps.
A correctly set trap will catch everything that swims and you cannot see it, even if its in the water at your feet.
Once laid, a trap will continue to catch until it rots away or is removed.
Sometimes they are tethered to the bank by a line, sometimes they are laid 'free' and recovered with a small grapnel or hooked pole.
The line to the trap is laid underwater and usually tied to the bottom of a stick pushed into the margins, the only sign of it being there is a 'foreign' stick or twig standing up above the water.
If you see anything that looks 'odd' investigate it.
Drag a net handle along the bank or weed margin, if you feel something that seems to spring away, investigate until you know exactly what it is.
Remember a trap will often be set in or near a swim anglers fish regularly.

We need to be aware and active, the fish thieves are laying down a challenge to us all.
So we either lay down and let them ruin our fishing for generations or we do something about it.

Take photographs of them (they hate being identifiable, so pretend its the water thats your subject) collect car and owner details, write down dates and times, there is no such thing as useless information (as long as it is accurate).
Visit your fisheries at odd times, especially after dark or during bad weather.

Get active and we will win, there are more of us than them and we have something we want to protect, not exploit.

 

[tiinker]

Okay Guys, let us get back to THE problem or OUR CHALLANGE.

English born anglers do not take freshwater fish for eating.
The removal of fish for eating is entirely carried out by immigrants.
The majority of new immigrants are 20-30years old and almost always male.
Many are unskilled from rural backgrounds, many have had military training.

These immigrants are here for money, nothing else.
Many of them want to send money 'home', so they try and live a cheaply as possible and make as much money as possible.
Many run illegal cars, use non-UK licences and will take anything they can dispose of quickly?
Because of their backgrounds many are highly skilled at non-recreational fish catching.
Many are also very good anglers, some are exceptional and can teach us a thing or two.

A few guys here and there taking fish IS NOT the major problem.
It is the traps and set-lines we all need to be on the look-out for, these are the real problem for our fisheries and for the future of our fishing.
These devices can empty a water without anyone knowing whats going on.

Eg: I have found and removed upwards of sixty set lines from one 150yard section of the River Itchen in the past two years, two just a week ago.
Over the past four years all of the river Carp have disappeared from the same section of river, plus the Barbel population appears to have dropped.

But the real menace is the fish traps.
A correctly set trap will catch everything that swims and you cannot see it, even if its in the water at your feet.
Once laid, a trap will continue to catch until it rots away or is removed.
Sometimes they are tethered to the bank by a line, sometimes they are laid 'free' and recovered with a small grapnel or hooked pole.
The line to the trap is laid underwater and usually tied to the bottom of a stick pushed into the margins, the only sign of it being there is a 'foreign' stick or twig standing up above the water.
If you see anything that looks 'odd' investigate it.
Drag a net handle along the bank or weed margin, if you feel something that seems to spring away, investigate until you know exactly what it is.
Remember a trap will often be set in or near a swim anglers fish regularly.

We need to be aware and active, the fish thieves are laying down a challenge to us all.
So we either lay down and let them ruin our fishing for generations or we do something about it.

Take photographs of them (they hate being identifiable, so pretend its the water thats your subject) collect car and owner details, write down dates and times, there is no such thing as useless information (as long as it is accurate).
Visit your fisheries at odd times, especially after dark or during bad weather.

Get active and we will win, there are more of us than them and we have something we want to protect, not exploit.

I went with my eldest son today to take a look at a river I have not fished for forty odd years We found some anglers fishing at Ulting on the Chelmer and spoke to them all were men in there forties and the three that we spoke to all said the same in the last few years the foreign anglers have taken many of the fish do not kid yourself that rod and line fishing for the pot has no effect on rod and line angling because it does. Angling pressure without the taking of fish for the pot effects catch rates the taking of fish for the pot means the fish are no longer there to be caught.

 

[bennygesserit]

The British by me take fish
Pike for eating
Or they throw pike to the back of the bank
Or they take buckets of roach for live bait
Or they take carp to transport to other venues ( not so common now )

No one on here has ever poached then ?

 

[symonh2000]

The only fish I have ever taken have been trout (at a put and take fishery) or a dace or two which have died in the keepnet. I am talking one or two dace over a 15 year spell of fishing here so nothing excessive.

 

[richiekelly]

The British by me take fish
Pike for eating
Or they throw pike to the back of the bank
Or they take buckets of roach for live bait
Or they take carp to transport to other venues ( not so common now )

No one on here has ever poached then ?

IF allowed by the cub/syndicate/water owner it is legal to take

one pike up to 65cm (25")

two Grayling between 30-35cm (14")

fifteen small fish up to 20cm (8")

It is legal to take tiddlers such as Gudgeon

Any none native species (ie Zander)

Any native ornamental species ( Koi/ Ghost carp)


I have never been in a club/syndicate that allows the removal of any fish some have allowed live baits to be caught and used on the same water.

If you have seen anglers doing what you state above what did you do about it? did you report them to the EA, police, club?

You are NOT allowed to set long lines, nets, traps, take from waters where permission is not given, take more than is allowed by law or to take oversize fish, all of this is happening and its not the British that are doing it its EEs some on a commercial basis.

 

[bennygesserit]

IF allowed by the cub/syndicate/water owner it is legal to take

one pike up to 65cm (25")

two Grayling between 30-35cm (14")

fifteen small fish up to 20cm (8")

It is legal to take tiddlers such as Gudgeon

Any none native species (ie Zander)

Any native ornamental species ( Koi/ Ghost carp)


I have never been in a club/syndicate that allows the removal of any fish some have allowed live baits to be caught and used on the same water.

If you have seen anglers doing what you state above what did you do about it? did you report them to the EA, police, club?

You are NOT allowed to set long lines, nets, traps, take from waters where permission is not given, take more than is allowed by law or to take oversize fish, all of this is happening and its not the British that are doing it its EEs some on a commercial basis.

Most pike by me of any size are either eaten or killed by British people , i'm not rorting them not over a fish.

What have I done ? Approached several sets of EE anglers and spoke to them about The fact that its British culture to catch and release , it might have worked they seemed friendly enough but they were just fishing not setting multiple traps. i'd totally agree though if so eone is breaking the law they should be prosecuted abdolutely agree with that.

All I'm saying is not all poachers are EE and not all EE are poachers, everyone is in one minority or another.

 

[tiinker]

Most pike by me of any size are either eaten or killed by British people , i'm not rorting them not over a fish.

What have I done ? Approached several sets of EE anglers and spoke to them about The fact that its British culture to catch and release , it might have worked they seemed friendly enough but they were just fishing not setting multiple traps. i'd totally agree though if so eone is breaking the law they should be prosecuted abdolutely agree with that.

All I'm saying is not all poachers are EE and not all EE are poachers, everyone is in one minority or another.

I am not bothered by the ones that are not Benny just the ones that are because there are far to many as far as myself and my fellow bailiffs are concerned. I am always friendly when bull*hitting someone Benny it is called snowing in this part of the country and is a card played by many poachers.

 

[dorsetandchub]

So in short you are saying nothing can be done is that right is that what you are saying. If That is the case you can look forward to a very bleak future and in my book you deserve it.

---------- Post added at 00:45 ---------- Previous post was at 00:36 ----------



If we wait for the power that be to sort it out we will be waiting for ever If we do not stand up for what is ours then we will lose it to a bunch of interlopers who do not give a t0ss for our way of life they are here for themselves and what they can get and more are on the way in a couple of days that is a fact.

Read the last line, please. What I'm saying is that, first, a strategy, a workable strategy, is required and, in order to complete that task we have to be aware of the size of the problem facing us and the public and authoritarian indifference to fish theft, as an issue.

The other aspect is that the drawing up and implementation of any strategy will only ever be made harder if angling is not a complete, united body.

You can slag me all you like, Tiinker. This isn't about me, it's about the fact that no headway will be made, no solution arrived at until the problem is acknowledged, its parameters probed, education and other deterrents fixed and fitted where needed and the situation arrived at where even those with no vested interest see it as a problem that must and can be remedied.

I'm just a messenger, Tiinker. Shoot me if it makes you feel better but don't allow yourself to think it's a step towards curing a pre existing problem.

All the best.

 

[richiekelly]

]Most pike by me of any size are either eaten or killed by British people , i'm not rorting them not over a fish.[/B]

What have I done ? Approached several sets of EE anglers and spoke to them about The fact that its British culture to catch and release , it might have worked they seemed friendly enough but they were just fishing not setting multiple traps. i'd totally agree though if so eone is breaking the law they should be prosecuted abdolutely agree with that.

All I'm saying is not all poachers are EE and not all EE are poachers, everyone is in one minority or another.

I know of no British anglers that take pike although obviously I don't know all British anglers, as for not reporting it well that's up to you but if I saw it going on I would because if nobody does it will continue to happen.

I am a bit perplexed with your post where you say you wont report someone over a fish but then you say if people are breaking the law they should be prosecuted, if you don't report it how can they be prosecuted. its not just British culture its law.

Of course not all EEs are poachers but the ones that do the things that are against the law and ruin fisheries are in most cases EEs, they know the law and choose to ignore it, if I had my way any immigrant that broke the laws of our country would be deported along with their whole family but that wont happen in our open to all do what you want and we will say nothing because we don't want to upset you country.

 

[dorsetandchub]

Blanker,


I totally agree with you, Blanker. It's not purely or solely an EE problem but if you have folks arrive from places where fish removal is the norm then you're starting from behind square one.

The answers have to come from within that community. They have to change their ways on this and must show their willingness so to do. All and any help required to achieve this should and must be forwarded.

As for British anglers removing pike, I agree it goes on along with other unsavoury practices such as fish transferrence. I'm not sure education is enough is these instances because those who commit these acts already know they are wrong and obviously blind to possible consequences.

A more stern approach is likely needed here, with far greater deterrents.

Like Tiinker and most anybody I suspect, I want to pass our waterways on to future generations in as fit a condition as I can but it's vital to understand that, in order to achieve this, one is facing an uphill battle - both as an individual and as part of, sadly, a non unified sport. The task is big, huge. The old military adage (the 6p rule) springs to mind "Prior planning prevents piddle poor performance".

My fervent hope is that the Reds have done thir homework prior to crushing Chelsea tomorrow.

Regards to all.

 

[tiinker]

Blanker,


I totally agree with you, Blanker. It's not purely or solely an EE problem but if you have folks arrive from places where fish removal is the norm then you're starting from behind square one.

The answers have to come from within that community. They have to change their ways on this and must show their willingness so to do. All and any help required to achieve this should and must be forwarded.

As for British anglers removing pike, I agree it goes on along with other unsavoury practices such as fish transferrence. I'm not sure education is enough is these instances because those who commit these acts already know they are wrong and obviously blind to possible consequences.

A more stern approach is likely needed here, with far greater deterrents.

Like Tiinker and most anybody I suspect, I want to pass our waterways on to future generations in as fit a condition as I can but it's vital to understand that, in order to achieve this, one is facing an uphill battle - both as an individual and as part of, sadly, a non unified sport. The task is big, huge. The old military adage (the 6p rule) springs to mind "Prior planning prevents piddle poor performance".

My fervent hope is that the Reds have done thir homework prior to crushing Chelsea tomorrow.

Regards to all.

As long as the planning is completed before it is to late . Action this day is the call in my and my friends book. Nero fiddles while Rome burns is no good to anyone. A stitch in time saves nine. We can all come up with platitudes it does save one fish from the pot Action does.

 

[dorsetandchub]

Agreed, totally. But I do think we need a plan - and it has to be cunning.

 

[tiinker]

Agreed, totally. But I do think we need a plan - and it has to be cunning.

Something on the lines of infecting all the fish with a bug that does them no harm but gives anyone who eats one the most serious case of the squitters for three months that should do the trick.

 

[dorsetandchub]

Now that's just.........ace

---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 21:41 ----------

Would bring the NHS to a halt in about four days though, right??