Gutted

[Chris Campbell]

Just heard by a friend one of my local waters has basically been fished out of pike by eastern European anglers. I know this is a touchy subject but it's a fact (in my opinion stating a fact is not racist towards Eastern Europeans although some people with their heads in the clouds think it is) that the majority of eastern European anglers kill everything they catch I am going on what I have seen first hand and heard from very reliable sources first hand. Why aren't more people approaching them when they witness this I have approached 3 Eastern European anglers up to no good when I was on my own sick of people moaning about it and doing nothing. Heard on talk sport one morning the host of the show saying along the lines of Eastern European anglers do this because they do it in their own country and don't know any better here. I totally disagree I have seen them taking fish after being told on numerous occasions not to and signs all round them saying you can't take fish either. The guy that said this is a clown or like many, too much of a coward to speak up and say something. I am devastated as this is the second local water this has happened to. I will approach them if they are doing wrong and put them straight but I have been fighting a losing battle can't be everywhere at once. It's annoying when people defend them saying there could be other reasons for this too like that makes everything that they are doing ok or your just looking for someone to blame these people that say this either need to open their eyes or get a backbone. Has anyone got any advice please? Just want my kids and other people kids when they grow up to be able to enjoy some of these less well known waters which are like little gold mines and should be treated with respect not taking advantage of and destroyed.

 

[tiinker]

Just heard by a friend one of my local waters has basically been fished out of pike by eastern European anglers. I know this is a touchy subject but it's a fact (in my opinion stating a fact is not racist towards Eastern Europeans although some people with their heads in the clouds think it is) that the majority of eastern European anglers kill everything they catch I am going on what I have seen first hand and heard from very reliable sources first hand. Why aren't more people approaching them when they witness this I have approached 3 Eastern European anglers up to no good when I was on my own sick of people moaning about it and doing nothing. Heard on talk sport one morning the host of the show saying along the lines of Eastern European anglers do this because they do it in their own country and don't know any better here. I totally disagree I have seen them taking fish after being told on numerous occasions not to and signs all round them saying you can't take fish either. The guy that said this is a clown or like many, too much of a coward to speak up and say something. I am devastated as this is the second local water this has happened to. I will approach them if they are doing wrong and put them straight but I have been fighting a losing battle can't be everywhere at once. It's annoying when people defend them saying there could be other reasons for this too like that makes everything that they are doing ok or your just looking for someone to blame these people that say this either need to open their eyes or get a backbone. Has anyone got any advice please? Just want my kids and other people kids when they grow up to be able to enjoy some of these less well known waters which are like little gold mines and should be treated with respect not taking advantage of and destroyed.

You will always get psalm singers there are none so blind as those that will not see. Hopefully things are changing in the south east with the improved forces in the field.

 

[richiekelly]

If they are poaching phone the police, if you see them taking fish or they have fish on the bank do the same.

There has been a lot of publicity recently about how the police will be taking these acts ( which are illegal ) more seriously and taking action. I don't know if this is just a PR exercise by the groups involved but time will tell.

 

[mark brailsford 2]

You should be very careful when approaching these EE chaps, they can turn really nasty! just take care mate, whatever your feelings about this it is not worth putting yourself at risk from a beating...Or worse!

 

[mick b]

Look guys its time we realised we are the only EU nation that returns the fish we catch.
Its not just the Poles its everyone from over the channel, they all eat fish, jeez the Krauts even put the heads of their Pike and Catfish on boards as trophies!

We all have rod licences, on it is the number to phone for emergencies, use that first, then call the Police.
If the Police ask what crime is being committed (and some bobbies are a bit lacking in countryside law) just say theft, the offender is taking something that does not belong to them.

If they have a car write down the car number, make note of what you witnessed, take a few photographs of the offenders and, if possible them near their car, ask to photograph the fish they have caught......

As an example I snapped a similar offence and it turned out that, amongst those I had photographed was a notorious gangmaster who was known to have several groups operating for him and fish sellers.

Jeez we've even had three foreigners arrested for using a speargun in a public park!
.
Don't moan, do something!

 

[richiekelly]

Look guys its time we realised we are the only EU nation that returns the fish we catch.
Its not just the Poles its everyone from over the channel, they all eat fish, jeez the Krauts even put the heads of their Pike and Catfish on boards as trophies!

We all have rod licences, on it is the number to phone for emergencies, use that first, then call the Police.
If the Police ask what crime is being committed (and some bobbies are a bit lacking in countryside law) just say theft, the offender is taking something that does not belong to them.

If they have a car write down the car number, make note of what you witnessed, take a few photographs of the offenders and, if possible them near their car, ask to photograph the fish they have caught......






As an example I snapped a similar offence and it turned out that, amongst those I had photographed was a notorious gangmaster who was known to have several groups operating for him and fish sellers.

Jeez we've even had three foreigners arrested for using a speargun in a public park!
.
Don't moan, do something!

The EA will not respond quick enough to catch them being so short staffed and it would be dangerous for one EA balliff to turn up if there were 3/4 breaking the law.

There has been a lot of publicity from the Angling Trust and the police about them taking action against these people whether its just lip service to the trust I don't know but these people are breaking the law and as such they should be arrested and prosecuted, although I have my doubts about what punishment they would receive.

Make a note as said above but also note the time and date of the call to the police and if you get no action complain to the police.

As for the rest of Europe and what they do, they are in our country not their own and should be obeying our laws not ignoring them because there are no consiqences.

 

[Poshpaul (Angling Trust and PaSC)]

It is an educational need not just an enforcement need. As others have stated all over Europe it is not uncommon for fish to be caught for food. I think I am correct in stating that returning a caught fish is actually illegal in Germany. (Although most german anglers happily break that law!!)

And do not tar all countries with the same brush. It is now illegal to kill fish for the pot whilst freshwater angling in Bulgaria. Now as a part-time resident in that country I am well aware that it is going to be a major educational job there - and as in many other states (including UK) the numbers of enforcement officers available isn't sufficient.

I have stated on similar threads that most of the tv angling programmes in Eastern Europe (far more than we have.....but repeated as blooming frequently!!)..promote catch and release BIG STYLE.

So yes - it is an issue, but it is going to be education rather than enforcement that will eventually prevail....and also (although I am happy to be corrected) I am fairly sure that where the riparian owners or others do not object; unlike Bulgaria, it is not totally illegal in England to take the odd fish for the pot!:wh

 

[cg74]

You should be very careful when approaching these EE chaps, they can turn really nasty! just take care mate, whatever your feelings about this it is not worth putting yourself at risk from a beating...Or worse!

Not much different to the British then really?

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 ----------

Look guys its time we realised we are the only EU nation that returns the fish we catch.
Its not just the Poles its everyone from over the channel, they all eat fish, jeez the Krauts even put the heads of their Pike and Catfish on boards as trophies!

We all have rod licences, on it is the number to phone for emergencies, use that first, then call the Police.
If the Police ask what crime is being committed (and some bobbies are a bit lacking in countryside law) just say theft, the offender is taking something that does not belong to them.

If they have a car write down the car number, make note of what you witnessed, take a few photographs of the offenders and, if possible them near their car, ask to photograph the fish they have caught......

As an example I snapped a similar offence and it turned out that, amongst those I had photographed was a notorious gangmaster who was known to have several groups operating for him and fish sellers.

Jeez we've even had three foreigners arrested for using a speargun in a public park!
.
Don't moan, do something!

Also state that the offenders were acting in a threatening manner.

 

[mick b]

When a Police officer attends a 'call' he is usually alone, he doesn't know what he is walking into and determines if he requires back-up when he arrives or if the situation escalates.

I know the EA Bailiffs operate in pairs most of the time, but there are times when they can be alone and that does not stop them doing their job, as with Police officers the EA guys have stab vests, batons, etc and, like Police officers are well capable of working alone in 'difficult' and/or isolated situations.

I totally agree our fishery laws are contradictory when it comes to taking fish, we (as licence payers) should insist on a total no take law, with the only exception being enclosed 'put and take' trout fisheries.

I also realise some other countries have 'no take' laws, Portugal for example, but that doesn't stop some miscreants taking as many fish as they can by whatever means available, including the use of submerged mono nets, dive suits, bottles and spearguns.
What does stop them is that every item of their equipment will be seized and destroyed if they are caught, and that includes their cars!

Yes education works, but only as far as the offender wants it to eg; they have to want to change their ways.
You cannot educate some who doesn't wish to be educated.

Ive been at the sharp end to far many times with offenders and from my considerable experience I can assure you that its the penalty for being caught that is the best preventative.
Letting your dog chase sheep for example, no-one allows it because the penalty is so severe.

As cg74 correctly states, the speargunners were acting in a threatening manner, that is why the Armed Response Unit was called to deal with them
Now ask yourself if those three 'fishermen' will want to carry a speargun along our river again?
.

 

[tiinker]

You should be very careful when approaching these EE chaps, they can turn really nasty! just take care mate, whatever your feelings about this it is not worth putting yourself at risk from a beating...Or worse!

As a bailiff I can tell you if these people are not taken on with fervour they will laugh at you they need to be jumped on not treated with kid gloves. They understand force nothing else if you are reasonable with them they laugh at you. If you are not prepared to go in forcibly then do not bother. Report it to the police and EA.

 

[Chris Campbell]

As a bailiff I can tell you if these people are not taken on with fervour they will laugh at you they need to be jumped on not treated with kid gloves. They understand force nothing else if you are reasonable with them they laugh at you. If you are not prepared to go in forcibly then do not bother. Report it to the police and EA.

I totally understand this mate I have went in trying to educate these chaps of our ways taking a nice approach and the guys fair play to them said yes we understand not a problem. They even had permits. The next again week I saw the same anglers from a distance bag a double figure pike and head off. By the time I got there they were long gone. So like you say sometimes it's better to get in their faces. Again like you say they seem to understand this better in my experience.

I live in Scotland so think the laws are different. We have some great pike and course waters that are free to fish. Most people see these as gold dust and cannot believe how much of a privilege it is to have free fishing so good and treat these waters with unbelievable respect. How ever the EE's take advantage of this and abuse it. They leave bags of rubbish and faeces everywhere, kill swans, ducks and geese. One guy stopped one of them from emptying a full days worth of a keep net full of bream, roach and hybrids into black bags.

Totally different mind set but most are ignorant to you educating them on the benefits of catch and release for everyone else. The looks you get when asking them something as simple as to pick their rubbish up after them.

Is there anything I can do to protect some of these waters? My local water that has been decimated is ran by a fishing club who have the lease. I think we might be able to speak to the owner on the subject if fish are taken from the water it is stealing.

I also believe there's a law on littering which could come in handy in some cases. Also the killing of swans.

 

[The bad one]

There's so much I could say on this but I'm not going to for security reasons. But be mindful that many of the EEUs are tooled up for filliting fish and the weapons they are carrying, because that's what they are, are not penknives. They are under the laws of our land, a banned knife to have in your possession in public without a very good reason or away from the place of work.

If you are going to approach them, keep a flee distance (Min 3 mtr) between them and you. Preferably you at the top of the bank and them at the waters edge.

Tinker is right enforcement and being nicked is the only way these people will learn. Not only are they committing the offence of theft, they will, by carrying the sort of knives they do, be committing a more serious offence of carrying a deadly weapon.
If you see or have grounds to believe they have knives in their possession back off to a safe distance and phone the police. Be very clear on where and what you have observed when you make the call.

For bailiffs, every area has a local tasking team headed up by a local inspector, if you're having problems with EEUs poaching a water ring him up make him aware of the problem on his patch. Their No is on the web for your police area. If he/she is ignorant of poaching, point him/her in the direction of the police information data resource regarding the poaching of fish.
Cultivate the local links as it will pay dividends as my club has found out

 

[Chris Campbell]

It is an educational need not just an enforcement need. As others have stated all over Europe it is not uncommon for fish to be caught for food. I think I am correct in stating that returning a caught fish is actually illegal in Germany. (Although most german anglers happily break that law!!)

And do not tar all countries with the same brush. It is now illegal to kill fish for the pot whilst freshwater angling in Bulgaria. Now as a part-time resident in that country I am well aware that it is going to be a major educational job there - and as in many other states (including UK) the numbers of enforcement officers available isn't sufficient.

I have stated on similar threads that most of the tv angling programmes in Eastern Europe (far more than we have.....but repeated as blooming frequently!!)..promote catch and release BIG STYLE.

So yes - it is an issue, but it is going to be education rather than enforcement that will eventually prevail....and also (although I am happy to be corrected) I am fairly sure that where the riparian owners or others do not object; unlike Bulgaria, it is not totally illegal in England to take the odd fish for the pot!:wh

So yes - it is an issue, but it is going to be education rather than enforcement that will eventually prevail....and also (although I am happy to be corrected) I am fairly sure that where the riparian owners or others do not object; unlike Bulgaria, it is not totally illegal in England to take the odd fish for the pot!

This is the same in Scotland. I am sure one fish for the pot now and again would not hurt anyone. How ever there was fisherman I know stopped one Polish guy from emptying a whole keep net full of fish into black bags there must have been near to 100 fish in the keep net. If more than one of them think it's ok to do this it wont be long before it has an impact on that water. Also after being told many many times and there being EU standard signs all round a fishery stating don't take fish they still go ahead and do it.

 

[mark brailsford 2]

As a bailiff I can tell you if these people are not taken on with fervour they will laugh at you they need to be jumped on not treated with kid gloves. They understand force nothing else if you are reasonable with them they laugh at you. If you are not prepared to go in forcibly then do not bother. Report it to the police and EA.

We have short term EE employees at our place and you can see clearly that they are laughing at us and I would not like to even try and confront them, ON ANYTHING!...

I will leave that to the bobbies with their big nasty Alsatians

 

[Chris Campbell]

We have short term EE employees at our place and you can see clearly that they are laughing at us and I would not like to even try and confront them, ON ANYTHING!...

I will leave that to the bobbies with their big nasty Alsatians

Trust me doesn't matter what country your from if you can fight you can fight.

If you get up and show them you mean business I don't mean go in swinging and personally insulting them. Just be straight to the point and let them know your in control and wont put up with any of their ****. I think you would be surprised at the response you get mate seriously.

 

[tiinker]

We have short term EE employees at our place and you can see clearly that they are laughing at us and I would not like to even try and confront them, ON ANYTHING!...

I will leave that to the bobbies with their big nasty Alsatians

I have one or two friends on other fisheries who are bailiffs and the bigger and heavier they look the less trouble they get. It is no good saying it is a different world today and that you cannot do this or that. The people that take the liberties only do it because they know they can get away with it as soon as they start getting stick the vast majority pack it in and go else where. We tend to work in groups but only one will confront and if they get shirty the others appear then they get the message and it is yes sir we go. You will always get the odd hard man but the vast majority are arm chancers. If they are carrying knives fish spears or anything else we call the police before confronting them but we do not wait for the police if they are killing fish. We have had bailiff groups working with anti poaching and trespass in this area long before EEs came to this country. If people think they can get away with it they will do it. If they think they will get agro from the locals they think twice. If you are not prepared to have to stand your ground then do not get involved in the first place they are not supermen just arm chancers who cannot believe how they get away with it show them who is boss do not be intimidated by them they have no more balls than anyone else and a lot less than many when stood up to, mention immigration officers can get a quick reaction and tends to have the desired effect more than once.

 

[Titus]

When or if you speak to the police mention you think you saw a knife, this will elicit a very swift response and 99 times out of 100 you will be right.

 

[dorsetandchub]

Gents,


I'm sorry but the following is my humble opinion 2p worth on this and, I believe, needs to be said.

There IS a problem with fish theft in the UK and it IS largely fuelled by immigrants from Eastern Europe. That said, however, in EVERY ethnic grouping in the UK where people get together in sufficient numbers and then establish heirarchies, trade and the like - all sorts of "problems" will occur but often, sometimes based on beliefs held elsewhere a "stand out" problem can flourish.

The main problem with this problem (clumsy, but I liked it) is that there is a powerful and growing PC lobby who will not allow its acknowledgement because, to do so would, in their minds, establish cultural differences and a possible tribal mentality.

Sadly, however, the reverse is the thunderous. If a particular section of society does not comment on a problem, other sections will be tempted to assume they accept it and maybe do not see it as a problem.

We all know there is a massive (truly massive) knife crime and gang culture problem in London but when Sir Paul Condon tried to raise this issue, he was publicly castigated and branded a racist. Ask the people whose kids are being killed and maimed - running away from and refusing to name a problem does not solve it. It leads only to apathy and indifference. If a certain section of society has a problem, then the answer must and can only come from that section. An externally imposed answer will never be truly accepted and will, in time, only become a part of that problem.

The recent police investigation into the grooming and sexual exploitation of white girls in Rochdale is a class example of this. The girls were treated as white trash, nobody took their claims seriously but, conversely, could it be that nobody wanted to lift the lift on what quickly became apparent as a community based problem. Nobody wanted to be the first to state that a particular community had a problem and risk losing their career and pension rights when the usual accusations of racism and fascism were bandied about.

Many of the Eastern Europeans here are not long term residents and have no plans to be. They are here, quite legitimately, to make some money in, maybe, a five year period and then go home with a lump sum and buy a home or set up a business. Fine, great planning, no problem with that - but what that plan MIGHT tempt someone to think is that "I'm not staying anyway so why not push the boundaries a little, behave in a way I wouldn't dream of back home".

The "offences" committed may differ but, conceptually, what is the difference between someone doing that and British kids going to Ibiza and screwing, drinking and puking their way through their hard earned (or less so)?

People do behave differently when not in their own back yard. That said, there ARE some amazing EE's here now who have seized the opportunities they were afforded and have treated their new host country with respect and dignity. It genuinely takes all sorts.

Sorry to prattle on but, in short, if there can be yawning community based problems which even multiple, dozens of homicides, cannot lead us to raise and acknowledge then, seriously, is anyone, other than the angling fraternity, going to raise issue with fish theft?

If people are too scared or apathetic to care enough about dead or sexually exploitated youngsters, will they voice their concerns about missing fish?

Sorry, but I have my doubts. I think we're on our own here. I'm not saying that we give up and accept fish thefts but I do think we need to be aware of the scale of both public and authoritarian apathy as to what we see as a major issue.

The best for 2014 to all.

 

[richiekelly]

Gents,


I'm sorry but the following is my humble opinion 2p worth on this and, I believe, needs to be said.

There IS a problem with fish theft in the UK and it IS largely fuelled by immigrants from Eastern Europe. That said, however, in EVERY ethnic grouping in the UK where people get together in sufficient numbers and then establish heirarchies, trade and the like - all sorts of "problems" will occur but often, sometimes based on beliefs held elsewhere a "stand out" problem can flourish.

The main problem with this problem (clumsy, but I liked it) is that there is a powerful and growing PC lobby who will not allow its acknowledgement because, to do so would, in their minds, establish cultural differences and a possible tribal mentality.

Sadly, however, the reverse is the thunderous. If a particular section of society does not comment on a problem, other sections will be tempted to assume they accept it and maybe do not see it as a problem.

We all know there is a massive (truly massive) knife crime and gang culture problem in London but when Sir Paul Condon tried to raise this issue, he was publicly castigated and branded a racist. Ask the people whose kids are being killed and maimed - running away from and refusing to name a problem does not solve it. It leads only to apathy and indifference. If a certain section of society has a problem, then the answer must and can only come from that section. An externally imposed answer will never be truly accepted and will, in time, only become a part of that problem.

The recent police investigation into the grooming and sexual exploitation of white girls in Rochdale is a class example of this. The girls were treated as white trash, nobody took their claims seriously but, conversely, could it be that nobody wanted to lift the lift on what quickly became apparent as a community based problem. Nobody wanted to be the first to state that a particular community had a problem and risk losing their career and pension rights when the usual accusations of racism and fascism were bandied about.

Many of the Eastern Europeans here are not long term residents and have no plans to be. They are here, quite legitimately, to make some money in, maybe, a five year period and then go home with a lump sum and buy a home or set up a business. Fine, great planning, no problem with that - but what that plan MIGHT tempt someone to think is that "I'm not staying anyway so why not push the boundaries a little, behave in a way I wouldn't dream of back home".

The "offences" committed may differ but, conceptually, what is the difference between someone doing that and British kids going to Ibiza and screwing, drinking and puking their way through their hard earned (or less so)?

People do behave differently when not in their own back yard. That said, there ARE some amazing EE's here now who have seized the opportunities they were afforded and have treated their new host country with respect and dignity. It genuinely takes all sorts.

Sorry to prattle on but, in short, if there can be yawning community based problems which even multiple, dozens of homicides, cannot lead us to raise and acknowledge then, seriously, is anyone, other than the angling fraternity, going to raise issue with fish theft?

If people are too scared or apathetic to care enough about dead or sexually exploitated youngsters, will they voice their concerns about missing fish?

Sorry, but I have my doubts. I think we're on our own here. I'm not saying that we give up and accept fish thefts but I do think we need to be aware of the scale of both public and authoritarian apathy as to what we see as a major issue.

The best for 2014 to all.

Senior police officers and politicians, both the same breed in my book, just tell "them" what they want to hear, don't rock the boat.

I think you are correct when you say if no one cares about the sort of thing that goes on who will care about a few fish, that's the reason I have doubts about the latest PR put out by the trust, believe me though I dont blame the trust for trying but only time and results will tell if they have been taken for a ride.

 

[dorsetandchub]

I have no problem with the Trust, they're trying to do something - that makes them OK in my book and, as I and many others have said on here, they ARE all we have...

I just worry that there is no willingness, no mind, at ANY level, to admit to these problems, to acknowledge them, to draw up a plan and implement that plan.

If that IS the case, at what level will fish theft be held to be a major social issue? Not terribly highly, I suspect, unfortunately.