Has barbel tackle gone to far?

[rubio]

Well that's a long thread to read through in one go!
Lots of passionate opinions, some seemingly contradictory. I certainly won't be profering my opinions about barbel as I've only caught one from a river. However I would like to ask if the idea of 20lb hooklengths is common?
Stronger than your mainline seems not to be placing fish as the first consideration.
Also I seafish with 60lb leader when casting 5ozs of lead. No-one appears to be advocating this for the scenarios described as needing so much lead. Would a long length of leader be enough to overcome abrasion, and improve casting?

 

[sam vimes]

I would like to ask if the idea of 20lb hooklengths is common?

It's a hangover from the carp scene. Many of the heavier barbel fishing techniques borrow fairly heavily from the carp world. Many of the carp hooklink materials are simply not available in breaking strains less than 20lb and it's a common feature of modern carping to fish hooklinks heavier than mainlines.

How comfortable anglers are with hooklinks heavier than mainlines often seems to depend on the age of the angler and their fishing background. I know it's common practice, but a match/general coarse fishing background still leaves me quite uncomfortable with it.

In a similar vein, I'm just as uncomfortable by the selection of lines based on diameter whilst ignoring stated breaking strains. In both instances, I know that the selected hooklink materials are likely to break way before a well chosen mainline, even if the stated breaking strains are considerably higher.

 

[tigger]

Regarding the higher B/S hooklengths, I have done it myself but it didn't take long before I realised it wasn't the correct thing to do.
I find it a daft thing to do because the fish is obviously going to be trailing the swivel if the mainline goes which is sure to happen!

 

[Philip]

'if you care that much about their welfare, maybe you should quit trying to stick a hook in 'em'.

Indeed. And something I have suggested a few times on here when the fish welfare police get a bit over zealous.

Always good to remind ourselves from time to time what the objective of the activity we participate in actually is instead of trying to sweep it under the nearest unhooking mat.

 

[Gloucesteroldspot]

The belief that playing a fish for a longer period of time on lighter tackle tires it out more and makes them go belly up is a total myth. It's playing a barbel hard that causes them to go belly up. I know because most of my barbel fishing is with 4 or 6lb mono and a float rod and even in hot conditions and low water they always leave a bow wave as they bolt off when released. On the other hand when i've used heavier tackle I have had them go belly up and they've needed to be held upright for a few minutes before being released.
The harder you play a barbel the harder it will pull back (same goes for a lot of other fish also) and so playing them with lighter tackle for a longer period is far better for the fish. Playing them harder is another cause of mouth damage as it causes tears in the flesh, especially as larger hooks are usually used with heavier gear.
If I do use heavier tackle, and I do if legering for them I still try to coax/play the barbel in rather than put on lots of pressure.

Quite so. Moreover, playing a fish - any fish - is a fundamentally important skill and forms a vital part of angling with rod and line. It should - in its finest form - be a delicate balancing act with the fish on one side and the angler (and his tackle) on the other. A good angler will be able to coax a fish to go where he wants it to without the fish realising, and with patience and a good feel for the business, land big fish on relatively light tackle. I stress the term relatively, because someone will certainly interpret that as saying you can land fifty pound carp on a one pound line, which is taking things to a ridiculous extreme.

However, a line with a breaking strain approximating to about 30% of the weight of the anticipated fish will, when paired with a suitable rod and reel, and a degree of skill (the element you can't buy) land most of those you hook. Ah, say the welfare police - but what about those you lose? Well, losing fish occasionally is an occupational hazard in angling, and should be recognised as such. To avoid it completely one must always fish with tackle capable of landing comfortably the largest fish you can possibly hook in that water. I have never tried it, but I imagine trotting for roach and dace with a 12lb line and a carp rod might be tricky, and none too effective.

Therein lies the paradox; what tackle to use when fishing a water with a mixed fish population? Do you go all out for the biggest fish and curse the smaller ones for their lack of fight, or do you set your stall out accordingly and take your chances with any big fish you hook? Maybe it's just me, but I find the whole process of equipping yourself with the finest tackle and bait you can afford, paying for tickets to fish the best waters available to you, and going to all the trouble to present a bait in the right spot at the right time rather pointless if, having hooked the fish, your intention is to get in the net as fast as possible.

 

[john step]

I think the disagreements about tackle arise from the fact that anglers picture their own waters and not quite grasping how different rivers are just that. Different. Even differing stretches on the same river.

There is no comparison with such as the Hants Avon or the Swale or the Lea to the larger rivers.
On these smaller rivers you are up close and personal and don't require such big casting weights that can SOMETIMES be needed on big rivers.Big weights equal stronger rods and line. In fact there is the luxury of often fishing downstream to the fish on these smaller rivers.

Might be nice to have all the time in the world to play a large barbel providing you can keep it out of the rocks and get the passing motor cruisers and large gravel barges to stop whilst you take your time.

Its like saying carp are carp and they all require the same tackle regardless of venue.

 

[Gloucesteroldspot]

I think the disagreements about tackle arise from the fact that anglers picture their own waters and not quite grasping how different rivers are just that. Different. Even differing stretches on the same river.

There is no comparison with such as the Hants Avon or the Swale or the Lea to the larger rivers.
On these smaller rivers you are up close and personal and don't require such big casting weights that can SOMETIMES be needed on big rivers.Big weights equal stronger rods and line. In fact there is the luxury of often fishing downstream to the fish on these smaller rivers.

Might be nice to have all the time in the world to play a large barbel providing you can keep it out of the rocks and get the passing motor cruisers and large gravel barges to stop whilst you take your time.

Its like saying carp are carp and they all require the same tackle regardless of venue.

I quite agree. My complaint - such as it is - is that there is a pervasive notion that to use anything less than 12lb line and a correspondingly heavy rod is damning the poor barbel to death by exhaustion, regardless of other factors. The same argument has been made about carp fishing, and will continue to be made by anyone who maintains these things can be expressed in neat, convenient terms of black-and-white.

I stand by my statement that to use tackle significantly stronger than necessary so you can virtually pull the fish straight in is potentially just as harmful as using tackle too weak to have any control at all, and also renders the whole operation rather pointless. Exactly what strength is appropriate depends on circumstances, as you say; the upper Lea is a very different water to the middle Wye.

 

[108831]

Quite a few anglers on FM trot for barbel on the Trent,Severn and Wye with 6lb line,with what seems like some success,it's pretty obvious not every spot can be fished on lighter tackle,but one thing is certain,lighter line requires less lead to hold bottom,therefore the distasteful 8ozs of lead shouldn't be needed,also leaving lengths of heavier line in the river after breakage in the rocks isn't a happy situation.On the H.Avon,the idea of a quaint small river isn't really applicable when taking onboard the fact that it is often chokka with streamer,something a Trent angler doesn't have to combat,or snags which barbel live in on rivers like the Ouse,which because of their size are a problem,every river has it's own individual problems,which must be ironed out by the angler,we must remember that we are supposed to be fishing for sport,not snapshots...

 

[Graham Elliott 1]

Well in the river Wye I use 10 or 12lb line mainly.
And if you let a fish charge around taking lots of line and try to tickle it in I guarantee you will lose a lot of fish that will end up trailing lengths of line.

These are not oversizes lumps but hard fighting fit fish that test tackle to the maximum. The way to go is rod high, maximum sensible pressure and hold on letting the rod do the work by keeping the fish away from the rocks in most swims.

After watching a group of match anglers on 5lb line lose fish after fish by being cut off time and time again trying to fish a gulley surrounded by rocks......my blunt advise nearly lead to blows.

Horses for courses but common sense has to come first and before any elitism. So many times I have heard "barbel" anglers boast to me " Lost 3 today mate, snapped me off"

Use tackle that YOU know is capable of landing the biggest fish in the stretch.

 

[tigger]

Well in the river Wye I use 10 or 12lb line mainly.
And if you let a fish charge around taking lots of line and try to tickle it in I guarantee you will lose a lot of fish that will end up trailing lengths of line.

These are not oversizes lumps but hard fighting fit fish that test tackle to the maximum. The way to go is rod high, maximum sensible pressure and hold on letting the rod do the work by keeping the fish away from the rocks in most swims.

After watching a group of match anglers on 5lb line lose fish after fish by being cut off time and time again trying to fish a gulley surrounded by rocks......my blunt advise nearly lead to blows.

Horses for courses but common sense has to come first and before any elitism. So many times I have heard "barbel" anglers boast to me " Lost 3 today mate, snapped me off"

Use tackle that YOU know is capable of landing the biggest fish in the stretch.

I use 12lb myself (for the biggest part) when legering, although I sometimes scale down to 8 or 6lb depending on circumstances as GOS said in his last post. Float fishing is a totally different scenario and 6lb is adequate for me in the rockiest of swims, of which they all are in the river I fish most. A lead hanging with your hooklength coming off at an angle when you leger is imo one of the biggest causes of snap off/cut off's. Obviously when float fishing you don't have such a severe angle from your shot and float to the fish so being cut off isn't as likely.

 

[lutra]

I use 12lb myself (for the biggest part) when legering, although I sometimes scale down to 8 or 6lb depending on circumstances as GOS said in his last post. Float fishing is a totally different scenario and 6lb is adequate for me in the rockiest of swims, of which they all are in the river I fish most. A lead hanging with your hooklength coming off at an angle when you leger is imo one of the biggest causes of snap off/cut off's. Obviously when float fishing you don't have such a severe angle from your shot and float to the fish so being cut off isn't as likely.

Even without a lead on Ian, I wouldn't dream of using my trotting hooklengths on my barbel rods. The rods are just to powerful and I wouldn't land anything of note.

Using lines as light as 3-4lb for many years when trotting see's me have a better success rate landing barbel than ledgering in the same river (not the same swims) with 12lb line.

You can't compare legdering hooklengths with trotting hooklengths. Its just not the same thing.

 

[john step]

At the risk of starting the conflict again........
I have gone through this thread again. I have been puzzled about certain aspects which have been in the back of my mind since it first was posted.
Regarding heavier rods......
Today the weather was warm and I was out in the garden fiddling with my rods. No pun intended.

Now I know someone on here's blood boils regarding heavier rods so I did an experiment.

I rigged up a 3lb tc rod and loaded a bag with 24 ozs of lead then lifted the rod making it curve until I think it took on similar BIG curve similar to that of playing a fish.

The rod just lifted the weight off the ground when it was to all purposes like playing a big fish. Thats 24 ozs with a rod rated at 3lb test curve.

I then rigged up my JW 11/13 foot barbel 1.7Tc rod at 11 foot and did the same with the same weight.

This rod bent in a very similar curve to the higher rated carp rod. Maybe a little more but not a lot significantly more until it lifted the weight.

I am not suggesting the 3lb rod is a barbel rod. Just a comparison.

Now I cannot say if a barbel exerts more power than the equivalent of 24 ounces but that is where the rods took on a healthy curve at. I suspect the barbel powering off exerts more, much more.

My conclusion.........

I realise that test curves are not the be all and action of a rod counts but somehow I feel that there might not be the amount of difference between rods that the stated figures suggest and more importantly even then the difference is not so great an issue that some would need to get hot under the collar about.

Steel helmet on awaiting incoming.

 

[thecrow]

No steel helmet needed for my view John, rods are nothing more than tools no different to choosing the correct spanner or screwdriver to do a job, pick the wrong tool and it will either make the job more difficult or even impossible to do.

The test you did although quite basic showed that your rods that were used were very similar in how they performed when under load, most anglers that I know that fish big powerful rivers choose heavier rods for one reason and that's getting the bait out and holding it where it needs to be its nothing to do with the old fashioned view that "its all about the fight" because without the heavier rods there would be no fight and I still have doubts that the OP was able to "crank double figure Barbel in".

While I was at the club water yesterday trying to decide whether to join again or not I was speaking to an old mate that I hadn't seen for over a year, when asked how he had done with the Barbel since I last saw him, he showed me pictures of the fish he had caught that he was rightly proud of, there were a mixture of fish ranging for 14+ to nearly 18lbs ALL were different fish, he had stopped photographing fish below 14lbs a while ago.

The reason I mention the above is simple, he uses 3lb powerful rods and whatever weight he needs to fish where the fish are he uses very long hook lengths of up to 13ft because he believes the bigger fish hang downstream away from the competition from smaller fish. The point I am trying to make is that he uses the tools and methods for a particular job that results prove are correct for where he fishes, not how some would choose to fish I suppose but its his choice and he is very successful doing it so all this about dragging doubles in really is only the view of an angler that doesn't need/want to fish this way but to criticise others because they don't fish how he wants them to is imo just wrong.