Poshpaul (Angling Trust and PaSC)
Moderator
Luxury!!!!
Has the Skill Gone Out of Fishing?
- Thread starter Graham Marsden
- Start date
Luxury!!!!
mickporteruk
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An interesting article Graham and a good debate.
As an angler of 60 odd years, I grew up with 'Mr Crabtree', cane avon rods and a variety of baits from maggots (usually bronze) to boiled potatoes. The skill in those days was more connected with finding where the fish were going to lie rather than technical tackle and rigs.
As a boy I was a chuck it and chance it fisherman. Big hooks, large baits in a hope to catch big fish. It didn't normally work and my daily catch would usually be made up of slimey eels and an occasional small chub.
Then came along 'Billy Lane's Float Encyclopeia'..... Billy described each float pattern and how it should be weighted according the weather and water conditions. Floats became available with approximate shot weights printed on their sides. Using Billy's book I learned how to shot my floats to present the baits in the most natural way possible. No more two inches of orange tip poking out of the water, now just a tiny part of the float tip showed as my float presented my baits in just the right way. My float would dissapear as soon as a fish breathed on it! Oh joy, I caught fish! No monsters, but fish were fish in those days, I could work on size later combining Mr Crabtree's guide with Billy's techniques.......... next came Fred Taylor, and other authors. New methods for ledgering were developed it was an exciting time for me.
Times have now changed. Fish are big and plentiful thanks to commercial fisheries and stocking policies. At the same time due the pressure on these fish they become more difficult to catch, (with size they appear to have developed bigger brains and are more cunning!) Therefore techniques need to be honed to keep up with them. I maybe old but I adore new tackle. The word tackle tart fits me well. I am a tackle shops dream.
So back onto the original question 'Has the skill gone out of fishing', I say no, I don't think it has. Skills have changed and developed and no doubt will continue to do so. 80LB carp are being caught in France and I am sure will appear here in years to come.
What I do think however is that catching fish on some fisheries has become much easier. Obviously more fish are stocked, fish are selected and bred for size. I regularly see anglers dangling a sweetcorn kernal into a foot of water just inches from the back to lure a patroling carp. Is this fishing? It's not my thing but those who do it get a great deal of pleasure from it. I am not sure about the fish who appear to be dragged out of the lakes in what appears a brutal fashion...... In this case I would say yes the 'skill is non-existent'....
As an angler of 60 odd years, I grew up with 'Mr Crabtree', cane avon rods and a variety of baits from maggots (usually bronze) to boiled potatoes. The skill in those days was more connected with finding where the fish were going to lie rather than technical tackle and rigs.
As a boy I was a chuck it and chance it fisherman. Big hooks, large baits in a hope to catch big fish. It didn't normally work and my daily catch would usually be made up of slimey eels and an occasional small chub.
Then came along 'Billy Lane's Float Encyclopeia'..... Billy described each float pattern and how it should be weighted according the weather and water conditions. Floats became available with approximate shot weights printed on their sides. Using Billy's book I learned how to shot my floats to present the baits in the most natural way possible. No more two inches of orange tip poking out of the water, now just a tiny part of the float tip showed as my float presented my baits in just the right way. My float would dissapear as soon as a fish breathed on it! Oh joy, I caught fish! No monsters, but fish were fish in those days, I could work on size later combining Mr Crabtree's guide with Billy's techniques.......... next came Fred Taylor, and other authors. New methods for ledgering were developed it was an exciting time for me.
Times have now changed. Fish are big and plentiful thanks to commercial fisheries and stocking policies. At the same time due the pressure on these fish they become more difficult to catch, (with size they appear to have developed bigger brains and are more cunning!) Therefore techniques need to be honed to keep up with them. I maybe old but I adore new tackle. The word tackle tart fits me well. I am a tackle shops dream.
So back onto the original question 'Has the skill gone out of fishing', I say no, I don't think it has. Skills have changed and developed and no doubt will continue to do so. 80LB carp are being caught in France and I am sure will appear here in years to come.
What I do think however is that catching fish on some fisheries has become much easier. Obviously more fish are stocked, fish are selected and bred for size. I regularly see anglers dangling a sweetcorn kernal into a foot of water just inches from the back to lure a patroling carp. Is this fishing? It's not my thing but those who do it get a great deal of pleasure from it. I am not sure about the fish who appear to be dragged out of the lakes in what appears a brutal fashion...... In this case I would say yes the 'skill is non-existent'....
dezza
Well-known member
If you cast a fly or trot a float, manipulative skill is still paramount.
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slime monster
Senior Member
Consider this .....A good angler on the right River peg may do 30lb plus of Roach on the float , a lesser skilled angler would come nowhere near that figure.
The same good angler would certainly be able to exceed 100lb on a well stocked commercial
and the same lesser skilled angler could well match that
.......my thoughts only
The same good angler would certainly be able to exceed 100lb on a well stocked commercial
and the same lesser skilled angler could well match that
.......my thoughts only
John Spilsbury
Well-known member
I am led to wonder whether an email I sent to Graham on this very subject back in October 2008, might have prompted Graham's article in some way. ( Graham, I know you were busy retiring at the time but you never did reply as you promised ;=) )
Before sending the email, I had just returned to fishing after a break of about 32 years.
An extract from that email I sent is :
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"But hasn't fishing changed? I stopped (in the mid 70's) because I was finding it too easy, no challenge, and I was having no social life at all. And I had annoyed quite a few specimen hunters by publicly saying catching big fish was not really difficult. And ( 35 years on) so it has proved: these days everyone and his dog seems to fish for big fish, and to have success too. Baits of course being the main reason. Both more attractive to the fish, and being used to effectively "grow your own " big fish. It looks even easier now. In some respects it has devalued the old currency. In my day the tench record was 9-1. My old mate Alan Wilson upped it to 12 at Wilstone. And now with all the baits thrown in what is it? 17-ish? My own best fish, quite a few of which would have been assured of a front page Angling Times spot, had I reported them back then, would now barely make the print run.
But now almost everyone seems to fish in exactly the same way. Tackle, rigs, baits etc have "prescribed" exactly how you will fish. I walked around a carp water last weekend, and there were clones of anglers and their tackle all around the lake. Every one more or less identical. The average angler still does not seem to think about his fishing. Just spends the money and goes out, knowing that his prescription will catch him fish.
And if he fails: commercial waters: bird tables for fish. Take up your spot in the hide, thrown some crumbs on the table and catch fish. Astonishing.
But there is one other major fishing difference: and for me it is a sad difference. I was astounded to find that the carp in these hot waters are now caught so often that they are given names. People go out KNOWING what size the biggest fish in the water is. No sense of surprise, no "Oh my God: look at the size of that". In many ways that was part of the thrill: catching a fish no one else had, not knowing how big the fish in a water MIGHT be. Wondering if there was an even bigger one. There are obviously two ways to think about all this: is it a good thing, or not?"
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As you can see, I would probably go so far as to say angling has been "dumbed down". There are TV programs, DVD's, guiding, books by the hundred, the internet, forums, GOOD tackle that you don't have to make yourself, astonishingly effective baits, more information floating about than in the Encyclopaedia Brittanica. People DO go into tackle shops and come out fully able to catch very big fish straight out of the box. You CAN buy success these days.
It is almost harder to find an angler these days who has NOT caught a double figure barbel, or a twenty plus carp. Everyone can catch big fish these days, and some of my statements, all those years ago, have become true to a degree that I would not have believed. At the extreme of modern angling it is all done for you: the hardest part is waking up, and getting out of bed in order to reel in the fish that has obligingly hooked itself.
It will always be possible to fish differently, to choose to use a greater degree of skill ( to make it harder for yourself?), and for most that will always be more enjoyable. But it would be silly to think that the clock can now be turned back. Many anglers will continue to fish with modern methods, to fish in fish farms..sorry commercials... and they will continue to enjoy doing so. Even the rivers do not really escape: they are fed daily with the trout pellets etc etc, and it is now the case that often the most fished swims produce the biggest fish. So the chances are that even your biggest barbel is a "farmed " fish. Given enough time ( and money) anyone can now generate an impressive big fish list. You do not need to be a Martin Bowler.
Since returning to fishing, I don't always seek out specimens, I vary how and where I fish, and can honestly say that I enjoy it far more, now that I have discarded all those big fish targets. I do still catch some very good fish, but it is no longer an essential end result.
Before sending the email, I had just returned to fishing after a break of about 32 years.
An extract from that email I sent is :
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But hasn't fishing changed? I stopped (in the mid 70's) because I was finding it too easy, no challenge, and I was having no social life at all. And I had annoyed quite a few specimen hunters by publicly saying catching big fish was not really difficult. And ( 35 years on) so it has proved: these days everyone and his dog seems to fish for big fish, and to have success too. Baits of course being the main reason. Both more attractive to the fish, and being used to effectively "grow your own " big fish. It looks even easier now. In some respects it has devalued the old currency. In my day the tench record was 9-1. My old mate Alan Wilson upped it to 12 at Wilstone. And now with all the baits thrown in what is it? 17-ish? My own best fish, quite a few of which would have been assured of a front page Angling Times spot, had I reported them back then, would now barely make the print run.
But now almost everyone seems to fish in exactly the same way. Tackle, rigs, baits etc have "prescribed" exactly how you will fish. I walked around a carp water last weekend, and there were clones of anglers and their tackle all around the lake. Every one more or less identical. The average angler still does not seem to think about his fishing. Just spends the money and goes out, knowing that his prescription will catch him fish.
And if he fails: commercial waters: bird tables for fish. Take up your spot in the hide, thrown some crumbs on the table and catch fish. Astonishing.
But there is one other major fishing difference: and for me it is a sad difference. I was astounded to find that the carp in these hot waters are now caught so often that they are given names. People go out KNOWING what size the biggest fish in the water is. No sense of surprise, no "Oh my God: look at the size of that". In many ways that was part of the thrill: catching a fish no one else had, not knowing how big the fish in a water MIGHT be. Wondering if there was an even bigger one. There are obviously two ways to think about all this: is it a good thing, or not?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see, I would probably go so far as to say angling has been "dumbed down". There are TV programs, DVD's, guiding, books by the hundred, the internet, forums, GOOD tackle that you don't have to make yourself, astonishingly effective baits, more information floating about than in the Encyclopaedia Brittanica. People DO go into tackle shops and come out fully able to catch very big fish straight out of the box. You CAN buy success these days.
It is almost harder to find an angler these days who has NOT caught a double figure barbel, or a twenty plus carp. Everyone can catch big fish these days, and some of my statements, all those years ago, have become true to a degree that I would not have believed. At the extreme of modern angling it is all done for you: the hardest part is waking up, and getting out of bed in order to reel in the fish that has obligingly hooked itself.
It will always be possible to fish differently, to choose to use a greater degree of skill ( to make it harder for yourself?), and for most that will always be more enjoyable. But it would be silly to think that the clock can now be turned back. Many anglers will continue to fish with modern methods, to fish in fish farms..sorry commercials... and they will continue to enjoy doing so. Even the rivers do not really escape: they are fed daily with the trout pellets etc etc, and it is now the case that often the most fished swims produce the biggest fish. So the chances are that even your biggest barbel is a "farmed " fish. Given enough time ( and money) anyone can now generate an impressive big fish list. You do not need to be a Martin Bowler.
Since returning to fishing, I don't always seek out specimens, I vary how and where I fish, and can honestly say that I enjoy it far more, now that I have discarded all those big fish targets. I do still catch some very good fish, but it is no longer an essential end result.
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Paul Morley
Well-known member
The bits I like best above are the issue of known, named carp- no mystery, no room for imagination. Why would you chase known, named fish? What possible thrill can be in that? Also the fact that anyone can catch big fish with the time and the products - I think there's a lot in that. Some real numpties out there do catch large carp and barbel and I don't feel they're using much skill. I run a mile from that scene. I think angling has been dumbed down and sometimes feel a bit embarrassed when non-anglers think we are all those blokes in little tents with cans of beer.
Ray Roberts
Well-known member
I think that we all sometimes look back on past times with rose tinted spectacles. Back in the day there were just as many numpties and probably more if anything. Not everyone was a Richard Walker or a Benny Ashurst by any means. The possibilities to improve your knowledge that exists now did not exist then.
Paul Morley
Well-known member
I'm 46, the tinted specs have not yet been issued. If the majority use methods which require only competence, not skill, then the skill is going out of angling. The 'trap' (most barbel and carp tactics) method often uses only competence, techniques like trotting a float or fly fishing clearly require the learning of a skill.
Poshpaul (Angling Trust and PaSC)
Moderator
You're in danger of leading me onto the rant here Paul. I have spent years in various forms of teaching chuntering in disbelief as the policy makers produce systems which train our students into reproducing competences rather educating them to develop skills and independent and inspirational thought.
Having said that I think you are being a little dismissive here. Whilst no great fan of the "trap" there are times and places where it is the valid technique. You also dismiss the genuine skill and knowledge necessary to be truly effective in this as with any,method. Successful anglers of any method become so as they acquire more and more knowledge with which they then hone their skills. The right size hook-length, the appropriate material for that hook-length, the right size hook, the right pattern, the right weight of hook (one highly respected angler of this parish was discussing his findings of weighing hooks last year at the Palace- the hooks in each packet turn out to weigh differently - crucial knowledge if perfecting your rigs for extremely finicky fish). What bait, what size bait, what feeding patterns, how to present that bait.
I do think you have a point where folk are "one trick ponies" but I think they deserve our sympathy at what they are missing out on - if nothing else the sheer comedy of my fly casting!!
Having said that I think you are being a little dismissive here. Whilst no great fan of the "trap" there are times and places where it is the valid technique. You also dismiss the genuine skill and knowledge necessary to be truly effective in this as with any,method. Successful anglers of any method become so as they acquire more and more knowledge with which they then hone their skills. The right size hook-length, the appropriate material for that hook-length, the right size hook, the right pattern, the right weight of hook (one highly respected angler of this parish was discussing his findings of weighing hooks last year at the Palace- the hooks in each packet turn out to weigh differently - crucial knowledge if perfecting your rigs for extremely finicky fish). What bait, what size bait, what feeding patterns, how to present that bait.
I do think you have a point where folk are "one trick ponies" but I think they deserve our sympathy at what they are missing out on - if nothing else the sheer comedy of my fly casting!!
Ray Roberts
Well-known member
You've never had it so good.
There has never been a time when decent useable tackle was cheaper and more accessible to the average angler. The fish are also, in most cases larger and more widely spread. If you want to find out more on any aspect of angling then there are tuitional DVD's on most aspects of angling and more information than you could possible ever watch available on sites like this.
I really don't get the holier than though attitude of some of the guys who post on here, as in; "my angling has somehow has more indefinable merit than yours". Wandering miles along the bank in search of fish isn't always the sign of a good angler, it can be the sign of someone who has yet to learn enough watercraft to not have scared every living thing within a hundred yards, of even how to feed effectively and not having to move swim every so often, as you have just bugg"red up the last one you were in.
If you don't like; commercials, bait boats, bolt rigs, rod pods or any other; place, technique or method, then don't use them or don't go there.
There has never been a time when decent useable tackle was cheaper and more accessible to the average angler. The fish are also, in most cases larger and more widely spread. If you want to find out more on any aspect of angling then there are tuitional DVD's on most aspects of angling and more information than you could possible ever watch available on sites like this.
I really don't get the holier than though attitude of some of the guys who post on here, as in; "my angling has somehow has more indefinable merit than yours". Wandering miles along the bank in search of fish isn't always the sign of a good angler, it can be the sign of someone who has yet to learn enough watercraft to not have scared every living thing within a hundred yards, of even how to feed effectively and not having to move swim every so often, as you have just bugg"red up the last one you were in.
If you don't like; commercials, bait boats, bolt rigs, rod pods or any other; place, technique or method, then don't use them or don't go there.
Paul Morley
Well-known member
And the question was 'is the skill going out of angling', the answer is still yes if most anglers used methods requiring less skill. I don't think genuine skill and knowledge are being sought to be truly effective. I don't think the anglers who use these methods week in week out are bothered about that. I'm fairly sure that some things in life have more merit than others and that it is definable; for example one wouldn't eat McDonalds every day if one was a food enthusiast. We've never had it so good - lines of anglers doing exactly the same thing for exactly the same quarry. Depends how you define 'good'.
Ray Roberts
Well-known member
Paul this is my point. You think that it's you who is the gourmet. Eating soup with a fork would be harder to do than using a spoon but it wouldn't have any more merit.
Paul Morley
Well-known member
I believe there is merit in being discerning - I choose to fish, I choose not to play golf. I I choose to associate with others who appreciate the skill of trotting a float, for example, as I bet you do, Ray. Again - these skills are leaving angling and that's my response to the question. Not - 'angling is poorer for the loss of these skills' or 'all anglers should learn to float fish' - these are for a different thread!!
Ray Roberts
Well-known member
We each get different things from angling. I do prefer trotting a float to most other methods, this is a personal preference though and I don't feel that I have any right to denigrate the way other anglers get their jollies. If it floats their boat, then that's fine with me.
These days an angler can start carp fishing for example and buy all his kit already made; bait, rigs, the lot. An off the peg angler, if you like. As his interest/skills increase, then he may learn to make/modify his own rigs, formulate and make his own bait learn about watercraft etc. Judging by the plethora of "how to do it" magazines and specialist carp angling magazines on the newsagents shelves I would say that there is no lack of desire for knowledge and as this aspect of the sport is the fastest growing it is only natural that it has more than its fair share of beginners or relatively inexperienced anglers.
These days an angler can start carp fishing for example and buy all his kit already made; bait, rigs, the lot. An off the peg angler, if you like. As his interest/skills increase, then he may learn to make/modify his own rigs, formulate and make his own bait learn about watercraft etc. Judging by the plethora of "how to do it" magazines and specialist carp angling magazines on the newsagents shelves I would say that there is no lack of desire for knowledge and as this aspect of the sport is the fastest growing it is only natural that it has more than its fair share of beginners or relatively inexperienced anglers.
Paul Morley
Well-known member
So the skill's definitely going out of angling then?
dezza
Well-known member
Yes, and although I hate to say it, it's also going out of fly fishing.
What with blobs on high density lines, sight bobs and bungs, now we have what is termed: "Czech Nymphing" which is nothing more than using a long rod and dropping a team of heavy nymphs under a bung and watching for a bite. You don't need to learn to cast, or use a fly rod and line either. The first three sections of a pole are ideal!
It's nothing more than float fishing.
Maybe one day the skills of fishing will have diminished so much that catching a fish becomes a bore. And as more and more people leave this boring pastime, the antis will have achieved their aims.
I hope not.
What with blobs on high density lines, sight bobs and bungs, now we have what is termed: "Czech Nymphing" which is nothing more than using a long rod and dropping a team of heavy nymphs under a bung and watching for a bite. You don't need to learn to cast, or use a fly rod and line either. The first three sections of a pole are ideal!
It's nothing more than float fishing.
Maybe one day the skills of fishing will have diminished so much that catching a fish becomes a bore. And as more and more people leave this boring pastime, the antis will have achieved their aims.
I hope not.
Paul Morley
Well-known member
Indeed Ron, many skills are diminishing, eventually we'll all just be heads in glass jars......in a line behind skyward pointing carp rods on the Ribble....arf!!!