Is it the rod or the line that gives you fighting power?

[108831]

Many of todays float rods bend to the butt,i'm sure yours do when your using 6lb sensor straight through for barbel,there are rods and rods,some you wouldn't give the light of day,that's all types of rod,all I know is this I bought a 13ft acolyte ultra,a nice rod,I used it in a swim for chub,had them to 5lbs,had a big problem getting them up the peg quick enough to stop them getting into reeds,fished the same swim with a cadence 13ft no.3 and found I could hoss them up the swim quicker,now these findings sound quite obvious,but without actually using both rods with identical floats,lines,hooks etc you wouldn't really know,i'm sure I have several other rods that would have given more grunt too....

 

[tommos16]

I was carp fishing last week under the tip with an £18 12ft float rod as well as a £40 8ft Sigma feeder rod with a maggot feeder on. Landed carp the same weight (8lb) on both and the stiffer, tippy float rod was by far and away the more useful tool. Both had Flouro on rated 12lb, down to 8lb Floruo hooklinks.


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[tigger]

I'm not surprised, an ultra isn't the right choice for barbel surely?

I use a plus and have no problems, infact i've often used it in hit and hold situations and not given an inch of line to barbel of ten pounds and over.

 

[tommos16]

So to conclude, there’s an infinite amount of line and rods available and you’ve got to find a good balance for the sport you want. I personally definitely do want to fight a fish before it’s landed, all part of the challenge and it seems only fair for them. In fact one big issue I’ve had when not carp fishing is missing the feeling of a fight, even a 4lb carp will give you a good scrap. I don’t really focus too much on line strength, i personally tend to err on the side of caution and go heavier on the line and couple with a lighter rod so it balances out. Don’t see the sense in having a weak line and having that risk, then the fight comes from the rod alone basically


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[barbelboi]

I think/know you described that a lot better than me bb .


Oh, get yer hair cut!

$od off - it's less expensive to buy a ltr of JD.................

 

[tigger]

$od off - it's less expensive to buy a ltr of JD.................

No need to touch the booze money .

Just cut it as close as you can with the scissors and then shave it with a razor, it'll all grow back evenly sruffy. You can do your hair, beard and have a bath all in one, and you only need to do it all several times a year!
The JD being sweated out of your pores will kill off any developing odours that develope inbetween overhauls .

 

[108831]

I'm not surprised, an ultra isn't the right choice for barbel surely?

I use a plus and have no problems, infact i've often used it in hit and hold situations and not given an inch of line to barbel of ten pounds and over.

No chub Ian,actually barbel are easier than the chub,though they fight harder they don't try to climb the bank,sods them chevins....

 

[tigger]

No chub Ian,actually barbel are easier than the chub,though they fight harder they don't try to climb the bank,sods them chevins....

Yup, them chubs know how to bolt into a snag, very often leaving the hook embedded in it also lol.

 

[valetudoguy]

Lakhyman, for what it's worth, my opinion, is that a through action rod is less powerful than a tippier actioned rod of the same test cure which has a progressive action of which will bend right through as pressure is applied.

I'm a little lost, Lakhyaman appears to be talking about a progressive action rod as do you. I have had a Harrison GTi 13ft for close on 15 years and it really is a beauty with a constantly suprising and powerful progressive blank.

For what it's worth I think that either a tippy or through action rod can be more powerful in a given situation.

I believe that with equal rod lengths, I could apply more power with a tip action rod under circumstances: Longer distance, shorter time and while using particularly stretchy mono.

While I believe that I could apply more power with the through action rod under circumstances: shorter distance, longer time and while using particularly unforgiving braid.

The one occasion of power that I think the tippy action will always out power the through action is casting power, but I assume that's not forming part of this conversation.

 

[valetudoguy]

I suppose I'm being obtuse but that clip I put in my original post shows a 2.5 lb tc rod putting nearly 3 times more pressure as measured by tying the line to a scale and pulling the rod to a 90 degree angle between tip and butt as compared to a 3.25 lb tc rod. The difference was the lighter rod had a more "through action" while the higher tc rod had a tip action. I have used fly rods with ordinary line as float rods and found them to be the ultimate "servo" brake when it came to stopping fish in a reasonably short distance without giving any line at all.

I am sure I am misunderstanding something.

All the best

Lakhyaman

The only points I would make are that the test felt like it was designed to favour the through action, by having a slow and constant load. Had they been testing for peak power with a much faster load I.E a slightly sustained strike, I believe that the results would likely be reversed.

 

[Windy]

I find the fashion for ridiculously high test curve broom poles to be wholly fallacious when it comes to playing fish. Not I hasten to qualify if I am interested in heaving a heavy lead or feeder to the horizon, when the dynamic power of the rod isn't really aimed at playing the fish at all, just getting the end tackle out there.

I have had enormous success bringing in carp to over 20lbs with my trusty 9' fly rod (Orvis blank built up by Duckers of Oxford, wonderful rod) feeding dog biscuit floaters and then casting a deer hair beetle fly into their midst, using no higher than a 6lb tip leader. Not a problem and almost never had a hook pull.

On one memorable occasion I was tackling up this way at a well known local Carp lake when a couple of much be-cammo'ed and tackle be-laden down experts came past me on the bank and took one look at my rod - a centimetre or so in diameter at the butt - and told me in no uncertain terms that there was no way on earth that I could land any of the carp from the lake in question so under tackled and that I would soon learn my lesson.

Cheered me up no end as I pulled out 10 or 12 carp varying from 6 to 18lbs in the course of the next couple of hours (evening ticket, cheaper after 4pm) with no problems at all while they pulled out of and lost everything they hooked. I don't think they were happy...

Elementary physics, a rod is a spring. Soft springing gives and takes far more than a broomstick. If you're using a compliant rod with a through action and enough natural damping and power in the butt then all is good (within limits obviously). A broomstick is essentially no spring at all, leaving you with nothing to moderate the pulls and lunges of a fish on the line except for the line itself. With good old monofilament you used to have some give there, but with modern hyper lines and braid you've got nothing.

Doesn't mean that I am advocating ridiculously weak rods and inadequate line strength in any way at all, just that balance is all, and never mistake test curve for strength in playing a fish.

"Remember Grasshopper, the willow survives the hurricane by bending before the storm, while the mighty oak is felled..."

Apologies to those too young to remember a great TV series.

 

[Keith M]

The way I see it; Tip actioned rods are not renowned for being able to play hard fighting fish; they are better at trying to bully them and casting a long way and for striking/pulling the hook home at a distance than they are at evoking a constant and more forgiving pressure on a large fish and subsequently being able to tire the fish out a lot faster; and with a lot less chance of a hook pulling out like a through actioned rod of the same test curve can.

But thankfully when you are fishing at long range; as well as being able to pick up your line and set the hook a lot easier you can also sometimes absorb a lot of the fight while the fish is still a long way off. However; if you are trying to fight a fish at a much closer range; which most of us do; then the more forgiving action of a more through actioned rod can pay you dividends.

Keith

 

[108831]

I am convinced I land barbel quicker without the need to give much line on a through actioned rod,the thing is when you use a match type rod with 6lb line it suddenly becomes more through actioned,just because your reaching the rods limits.

 

[tigger]

The way I see it; Tip actioned rods are not renowned for being able to play hard fighting fish; they are better at trying to bully them and casting a long way and for striking/pulling the hook home at a distance than they are at evoking a constant but more forgiving pressure on a large fish and subsequently being able to tire the fish out a lot faster; and with a lot less chance of a hook pulling out; like a through actioned rod of the same test curve can.

But thankfully when you are fishing at long range; as well as being able to pick up your line and set the hook a lot easier you can also sometimes absorb a lot of the fight while the fish is still a long way off. However; if you are trying to fight a fish at a much closer range; which most of us do; then the more forgiving action of a more through actioned rod pays you dividends.

Keith

Keith, I often hit fish very close, literally inches from their hideaway under fallen trees and i'm only stoof 10 or 15 yds away from them. Being so close to their hideaway and being fresh they fight as hard as they can and realy pull for security under their trees. I've tried numerous float rods including, drennan acolyte plus's, drennan im8 specimen float rods, drennan super tench float rod, hardy marksman specialist float rod, normark avenger float rod, daiwa rs pf tournament float rods, i've even tried some hardy avons of 1lb test to 1.3lb test and harrison chimeras of 1.5 and 1.75 test.
Now, I know this sounds daft, but all the rods I used appeared to bend round to pretty much the same extent.....I can't explain that but am all ears for anyone who can?

 

[tigger]

I am convinced I land barbel quicker without the need to give much line on a through actioned rod,the thing is when you use a match type rod with 6lb line it suddenly becomes more through actioned,just because your reaching the rods limits.

They are no more bent round than heavier avon rods i've used. The avon rods were at their limits, even more so!

 

[108831]

No ,I agree Ian,but the result is the same,a good playing action for getting fish out fairly quickly and without enormous grief.My Harrisons that I use for barbel are the 11ft Avon perfection 1lb 6oz t.c. and Torrix 1.75lb t.c. ,both are through actioned imo,they rarely reach their full bend and then only when severe pressure is needed during lunges for safety and then only for seconds before the resumption of normal playing takes its course,imo there is no point having loads of strength in the blank you are not going to use...

 

[barbelboi]

Yes Alan - I love my Harrisons (Avon Specialists and Chimeras) both at 1.5lb with ProGold 10lb for hit and hold close to snags on the opposite bank. All you need is a quick reaction (i.e use 1 rod and be next to it) and you will not give the fish time to 'snag' - a good bend in the rod out in mid river but not, as you say, at full bend and a double on the bank very quickly. I am. of course talking about small rivers such as the Kennet, Loddon, Colne, Cherwell, etc........

 

[Keith M]

One day we will have rods that will allow us to adjust the rods action during a fight (just like you can adjust the drag setting during the fight now) so you can use tip actioned 'Hook and Hold' tactics whenever its needed and then allow the rod action to soften during the fight and again when the fish is about to be netted; with a flick of a switch, and all with no weight increase.

Scrub that! I'm dreaming again; that will never happen; plus it would take away all of the excitement and enjoyment that we have now

Keith

 

[tommos16]

It’s certainly possible Keith with some sort of stiff telescopic insert inside the rod that is adjusted with a similar clutch to the rods. In fact, being an engineer, it’s something I might look at as an experiment haha! See if the lads in the shop could knock something together. I’ll split it with you 50/50 if it ever becomes reality


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[valetudoguy]

It’s certainly possible Keith with some sort of stiff telescopic insert inside the rod that is adjusted with a similar clutch to the rods. In fact, being an engineer, it’s something I might look at as an experiment haha! See if the lads in the shop could knock something together. I’ll split it with you 50/50 if it ever becomes reality


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Shimano did it about 20 years ago by making an oval blank with different actions depending on orientation, I also seem to remember Tricast playing with rounded triangles too.