Lead core - tether rigs?

[gary knowles]

OK......serious question for carp anglers.

I don't do a great deal of carping but dabble at it when holidaying abroad. And, I'm just getting some stuff together for a trip to Canada.

My problem is this.....
As the area I am going to fish is very snaggy I have been recomended to use three foot of lead core above the lead to act as an abrasion resistant buffer. OK, standard stuff I know, so I make sure its not a tether rig by drilling out the lead to ensure in the event of breaking off above the lead the fish isn't left trailing a lead (or method feeder).

Only thing now is although I can ensure a trailing lead is jettisoned surely the fish can still snag on the lead core.......after all isn't the lead core simply a very thin weight ?

The fact that a fish will be trailing a foot of so of mono followed by three foot of lead core doesn't make me feel comfortable at all.

Surely the weight of the lead core will ensure that it is always dragging bottom - either the swivel attaching the core to the hooklength or the leadcore itself will eventually snag in rocks or boulders on the bottom. With leadcore being 40lb (ish) and hooklength material of about 15-20lb surely even without a lead this becomes a tether rig ?

If this is so it seems to me that any rig using lead core has an unacceptable risk of tethering a fish.

Any comments / help on this will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers in anticipation

Gary

 

[Carp Angler]

Ribble,

What a can of worms......
If you need abrasion resistence and you aint happy with leadcore then use Quicksilver or some brand of armoured tubing.

I'm a bit busy for a detailed reply, so if you need anything more then shout.

 

[gary knowles]

Rik,

Thanks for the reply........does that mean you agree ?

IS there such thing as a 'safe' rig using leadcore ?.......if not there is a lot of high profile carpers fishing with tether rigs....oh dear !

Look forward to a detailed reply when you have time.

All the best mate - See you soon.

Barney

 

[Carp Angler]

It depends on wether you think that a fish trailing leadcore is in any more danger of being tethered than one trailing mono or braid.
All things being equal and the lead and any accoutements are jettisoned, is any one thing any worse?

Only you can determine the way you think and what you feel secure using.
Because you have the slightest question about it, I'd suggest you don't use it.

Only use rigs you are 100% happy and confident with.

 

[David Preston]

It seems to me that any rig, for any species can, potentially, leave a fish trailing a long length of at least mono. Probably the best way of minimising that possibility would be to use a significantly lighter bs hooklength than the rest of the setup, probably together with an extended abrasion resistant leader.
What about a long Amnesia leader?
Rik - didn't you tell me about using Amnesia right through?

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Gary, you are correct, lead core will drag bottom and could potentially snag up. I have no idea why lead core is used as an abrasion resistant leader because all it is is a nylon braid with lead inside. Just because it looks thick does not mean its strong.

Problem with quicksilver, well any braid, is that if u get cut off or worse, the main line goes, the fish is trailing say 30 feet of 40 pound braid! I once saw a carp that this had happened to. The braid snagged and the fish began to roll. The braid cut deeply into the fish and it had to be killed as the braid was so deep into the flesh.

I do not have an answer, but I do use Quicksilver myself, but I make sure its not too snaggy close in on my swim, as them my main line would be at risk. I suppose keeping the rod tips very high would help too.

 

[Gary Knowles]

Rik / All ,

I would definitely have thought that trailing leadcore was far more likely to snag than heavy mono as the weight would undoubtedly ensure it was dragging bottom whereas mono would, in all probability trail behind the fish.

What is the general consesnsus in the carp world......any users of leadcore out there can put my mind at rest.

Is the use of lead core banned on any carp commercial/syndicate waters ? I think if I owned one it would be !

 

[Carp Angler]

Dave said
"Rik - didn't you tell me about using Amnesia right through?"

Yes, I've used 20lb Amnesia reel-line to a 45lb Quicksilver leader.
I came in for stick from the locals, but I was landing all fish, not leaving fish trailing 80 yards of line as one of them did.

Barney said
"Is the use of lead core banned on any carp commercial/syndicate waters ? I think if I owned one it would be !"

Marsh Pratley of Orchid Lake fame has banned the use of leadcore on his fishery.
This was due as a direct result of finding his 43lb+ common dead, tethered to a snag.
I am not sure if any leadcore was involved or he just banned it to be sure.


From another view point, would a hook length with a swivel attached, weigh more than loose mono and be more likely to snag up?

Where do we draw the line?

Reasonable risk?
Acceptable losses?

 

[mark tullett]

Since I came back to fishing about 4 years ago, I've been suprised that many people use really strong hooklengths with weaker mainlines. I can understand this with a 'stiff' rig but why with other rigs? Being an ex-match boy I always used weaker hooklengths, if the weakest point in any setup is a knot then potentially the knot in the weaker line will go first leaving, in alot of cases, thick line + a swivel which, I would've thought was almost as bad as leadcore. Strictly speaking this may not be true as a knot in thinner line will bed down better than thicker line but you get my drift!.
So why do we get people use 25lb braid or whatever on the hooklength & 10 -12lb mainline?

 

[Paul Williams]

Mark,
A very good point! and i have been bought up to think along the same lines so i agree the first part of the equation should be a balanced line set-up.
I'm not pretending to be qualified to answer Gary's points about the use of lead core but i personally would be thinking of staying with mono (with weaker hook link) and perhaps a tubing/sheathing as Rik suggested possibly held in place by one of those slide on stops above it.

 

[Andy Rooke]

leadcore is great if used in the right hands, but in poor hands Deadly as poor arnie from Orchid found out 40 common dead because of some d.ckheads disrespect for the carps welfare

 

[Paul Williams]

No matter how long any of us have been fishing we ALL need questions answering sometimes and sites like this one may well help save fish in the future!!! it's good to talk!!

 

[Carp Angler]

Definitely no stops above the tubing.
Potential tether risk, if the tubing cannot slide off of the line and the lead is attached to it.
I'd suggest an inline lead with the armoured tubing attached with loose rig sleeving

 

[Paul Williams]

Rik,
A very good point!! i did have a solid type of tubing in mind (but i didn't say!!)but i agree 100%, a flexible tubing wouldn't push even one of those easy moving stops off, it would just concertina up the line. It IS good to talk!!

 

[Darren Wilson]

Leadcore can be totally safe if used correctly. I cannot believe that nobody has mentioned it's use as a Helicoptor rig? If you use a piece of silicone tubing as the top bead stop or one of the recently rereleased CV Safety Rigs (the actual metal piece) then if you should break off, the hooklink can then come free of the leadcore so the fish is not dragging the leader around with it.

 

[Carp Angler]

Hi M8,
have you ever used a heli rig with tubing as the top stop?
I tried it with the Frank Warwick rig and I'd have to say it's potentially the most lethal rig I've ever constructed.
To get the tubing tight enough to stay in place for the cast meant that it wouldn't give at all if a carp became tethered.

I admit to only giving it a few attempts as I was not happy with it so didn't persue it in greater depth.

At this point, I'd like to say that rig safety, within some basic guidlines, is a totally personal thing.
The idea of PVA above the heli hooklength is great in theory, but knot a ball of PVA and it doesn't melt.
Some people believe that to be an amazingly safe rig, I think it's a killer.

I think you have to use a rig that you feel comfortable with, within safety parameters you feel comfortable with.

At least as responsible carpers we're discussing it and not just blindly ignoring others viewpoints.
e.g. fixed loop feeders....

 

[Paul Williams]

Darren,
exellent posting, but would it be as abrassion resistant as the armoured tubing? that is really the gist of the thread.

 

[Darren Wilson]

Yes Rik I have tried the silicone above the bead and if you use a soft enough silicon it will pass over a compressed loop knot & whipped needle type knot or tear in the process.

I now use the CV safety rig gizmo's (I managed to find a load in my local at next to nothing).

Paul Williams

Yes it would be as abrasion resistant as the armour tubing. I have not been cut off on a leadcore leader in snaggy areas. If in doubt though use a Quicksilver leader and no tubing. You can make this anti tangle by placing a piece of silicine tubing on the hooklink to alleviate 'flyback' on the cast or use stringers with a mono hooklink.

 

[andrew jackson]

Cv safety rigs are the only helicopter rigs I have seen that can be considered safe. I used lead core leaders for some time, untill the question of safety was raised. As it has been pointed out even if the lead can be jettisoned, after a break, this still leaves the fish trailing a length of lead core. What makes this worse is the fact that the same can be applied to any leader. This presents us with a moral dilema. It is true that the only sure fire way to stop this problem is to fish a lighter hooklength to main line. Trouble is, that in a snaggy environment your hook length would have to be strong enough to be abrasion resistant, this would result in having to use hidiously strong reel line. Further to this, for the hook length to be sutiably abrasion resistant, it would be too strong for the carp to break it any how.
My oppinion is that if we make sure that the lead can be jettisoned and the tackle is strong enough for the task, then that is all we can do. Lets face it if your gear is man enough, it is not going to end up detached from your reel any how. It is the eight pound main line, twenty pound leader set ups, for long range casting, that cause me the greatest concern. Use either lead core or tubing but my advice is make sure your reel line is strong enough to be sure that no matter what, you will be reeling it back in.

 

[Darren Wilson]

Some good points there Andrew.

In snaggy areas though I haven't found the need to use a significantly heavier hooklink, but just change hooklink material, if abrasion resistance is needed. Say if I had been using a soft braid which was not all that abrasion resitant, I would change to a nylon hooklink of the same breaking strain such as Berkeley Big Game or XT, or impregnate the braided hooklink with Kryston's Granite Juice.

These are just my own comments and they work for me. Not to say that any of the other posts are incorrect (which they are not) and it is good to come to a civilised forum for a change were the threads do not turn into a mockery.

This is what it should be all about. Good solid topics which are being discussed properly and not allowing others to slate anyone.