More on Hybrids

[Paul Williams]

Philip, yeah i see what you mean, to be honest i can't answer at what point it becomes irrelevent when they are in effect reverting back to the "true" species, i think what Graham said a few mails back about if it don't look right it usually aint sums it up.
Your point about "pedigrees" is exactly the point i meant,i too have a feeling that more fish than we may think have had hybrid contact, if it is true that only a few hybrids can breed it is easy to see they would probably have to go back to one of the original species, possibly the one they mostly "gel" to, it follows then that eventually we could arrive at a fish that looks a true roach but carries enough of the bream gene to enable it to grow to decent size very easily when in the right envoiroment (Linch hill?)
My point at the moment though is that some of the Linch hill fish most defininatly don't look right and the weeklies dishing out the prizes choose to ignore that fact, perhaps i am of the old school but that worries me deeply.

 

[Philip Inzani]

Paul, I think you and I have pretty much the same uotlook on it.
On a slightly different angle, one thing I am not sure of and someone maybe able to help me out with is with regard to these weekely prizes?..are they actually for simply the biggest fish of a given species or is it down to merit of the capture as well ? ?you know difficulty of venue, part of the country etc etc?..I cannot remember.
If merit comes into it then do we need to look at some hybrid captures in a different light ? Are some dismissed simply because its a hybrid even though the capture may have been a fantastic bit of angling ?
..Actually its got me thinking?has a hybrid ever won a weekly or monthly award ?

 

[Carp Angler]

Merits of the capture do not enter into the weekly awards.
Pure size and how famous you are determines wether you win or not.

Unknown angler catches the Dorset Stour record, 3 lines of comment.
Terry Lampard catches the same fish and gets a 2 page spread about how great he is and a weekly award.
This is fact and the captures were about a month apart..........

 

[Paul Williams]

I agree, the weekly prizes are a farce, perhaps a forward thinking weekly could report the captures and let a panel, like us!!! thrash out who really deserves to win?.....just a thought.

 

[Fergal Scully]

Sorry about the late reply I'm depending on a computer in work for my internet access. I havn't seen the picture you are all bothered about so Graham if you could send me on a scan of it that would be great. Thx for the welcome back Graham. For those who don't know me I was a member of an old mailing list that Graham ran on his old site which I won't name now. This kind of forum is a much better way of sharing views than a mailing list so expect to hear alot more of me in the future. One way to solve your problem once and for all is to set up a British version of the Irish specimen fish commitee whose job it is to catalogue all fish caught over certain set weights for each species as well as maintenance of the record fish list. We have seperate records for roach/bream and rudd/bream hybrids. view the list at this address
http://www.shannon-fishery-board.ie/specimen-fish-awards.htm

Rules for identification of fish are strict so we don't have the problem of hybrids being claimed for something they are not because hybrids are a recognised angling quarry in their own right so coarse anglers are used to identifying them and rats are quickly smelled.

 

[Philip Inzani]

Graham, if you do get round to scanning the picture would you mind bunging me a copy as well? thanks.

 

[Malcolm Bason]

Sorry to bring this one back to the top, but I would like to know if it is possible to produce a hybrid between 'any' two breeds of fish? For example - between a bream and a carp? Just interested, that's all!

 

[David Preston]

I think that most (all?) cyprinids can interbreed, but some species are far more likely than others.

 

[Malcolm Bason]

Thanks David, I appreciate the response

 

[Fergal Scully]

All cyprinids ( carp, roach, bream etc...) can hybridise but in the wild some species spawn earlier than others. Dace are first, followed by roach, then bream, then rudd, then tench and then carp there is an overlap between roach,bream and rudd hence the amount of hybrids seen I'm not sure about chub as we don't get them in Ireland. Also another worry is Ide which are in britain now also throwing more confusion into the whole hybrid bucket.

 

[Fergal Scully]

I just got the scan from Graham of the 3ib roach?? in angling times. I have to say it is definitly a hybrid and well done to those who spotted it as it is a very roachy looking hybrid. The anal fin gives it away as it is so dark in colour and to long for a roach. It still retains some brightness to its colour and some redness to its fins. If I didn't look closely at this I mightened have given a second glance so again well spotted. I'm going to write an article on this subject so look out for it in the near future.

 

[Mike Fidler]

Posted another pic on the fishingline home page if anyone is interested. The fish was another linch hill roach and yes it won an award.

 

[Paul Williams]

I don't blame the guy's who are claiming the prizes for these "roach" IF they genuinly believed they were roach, but i do have a genuine disgust for the weeklies who will not even publicly acknowledge that mistakes have been made!!!if they insist on this line then perhaps we should all get in touch with the prize sponsers and see if they have any comments?

 

[GrahamM]

I endorse Paul's comments.

There are thousands of anglers who are being led to believe that a lot of big roach are being caught (for most of the real biggies in recent years have come from Linch Hill) when they're not.

And consequently all other, genuine roach, are devalued, for they're being compared to the Linch Hill hybrids.

Which doesn't mean, of course, that every 'roach' from Linch Hill has been a hybrid, but it does mean that every claim for a roach from that fishery should be subject to expert scrutiny before any declaration is made of its parentage.

I know all this is a pain in backside for roach anglers, and especially Linch Hill roach anglers, but if we're to maintain the integrity of big roach captures then that is the only way to go with roach captures from a water proven to produce hybrids.

The weeklies have a responsibility to us to ensure they do everything they can to verify claims for specimen fish. Right now they are not doing that.

Clear photographs of the fish from both sides, showing fins and scales, is all it needs. It's not complicated.

I, for one, would be satisfied with a scale and fin ray count that checked out. To avoid any unnecessary complications that would be good enough for me.

 

[Paul Williams]

I have mailed both AT and AM, i have asked Richard Lee @ AT to comment before i (WE?) contact their prize sponsers, i have asked the editor of AM for his comments......we will see if i get a reply, if others wish to do the same here are the email address's
AT richard.lee@ecm.emap.com
AM anglersmail@ipc.co.uk

 

[Paul Williams]

I'm getting the one for AT returned saying to many hops!!
anyone know if this is the correct address? it is the one out of AT.

 

[GrahamM]

Try this one:

richard.lee@ecm.emap.com

 

[GrahamM]

Sorry, I've just realised it's the same one you gave above.

Looks like there's something wrong at their end. I should just try again later and see what happens.

 

[Carp Angler]

I tried Gareth Purnells and got the same thing.
I copied Max Cottis of Fox on the mail aswell.

 

[Carp Angler]

I forwarded the mail to donna.harris@ecm.emap.com <donna.harris@ecm.emap.com>
and it seemed to send OK
She is the Online Commercial Manager, whatever that is.