Red worms

[nottskev]

I will go out over the weekend and try to ascertain what my worms are using your chart.

Not my chart, Pete; Imperial College Research Centre's: in a world where a blackbird is a black bird but a black bird is not a blackbird, I'll rest content that Rayner and I know what a redworm is and what brandlings are. Everyone else can catch up in their own time.

In the North-west, at least, everyone distinguished redworms from brandlings as per Rayner's points, and we never saw the likes of the modern dendra. I wouldn't like to say when they began to be bred for the fishing market, but iirc some farmers diversified into it during mid-90's BSE, and Dutch ones were using these new super-worms to break down composted stuff. I also recall, but this is not the kind of stuff that gets uploaded so I can't find any online, old angling bait guides often advised redworms over brandlings due to the latter's bitter fluid. But didn't say how they knew what they tasted like.

 

[Keith M]

old angling bait guides often advised redworms over brandlings due to the latter's bitter fluid. But didn't say how they knew what they tasted like.

It’s probably because after breaking a branding to put it on their hooks they had some fluid left on their fingers when they ate their sarnies and found the taste horrible.

Redworms are very lively are quite small and are a really bright red; and grow roughly to a similar length (longer when stretched out) to brandlings but brandlings are fatter and a lot more sluggish and are a dull brown in colour and usually just tie themselves into knots when picked up.
Their rear half has brown and yellow rings and when broken they emit this horrible yellow fluid which is supposed to taste terrible which is why they are deemed not that good a bait compared to other worms but the very occasional mug fish will still eat them.

It sounds like Sam was buying redworms which were wrongly named as brandlings.

I used to get my very lively redworms underneath a pile of horse manure in the field behind our estate lake and the Tench really liked them; however when the horse manure had almost rotted away the brandlings started arriving in numbers and the redworms moved out.

Brandlings and Redworms are definately different breeds of worm.

Keith

 

[The bad one]

My view is that it important to use scientific names when it comes to worms. Common names just don't do it because of the regional names used. The worms used for composting by the composting trade are Eisenia fetida Tiger worms, brandlings blah blah blah! They are not Redworms! Ged28 is correct by saying Eisenia andrei, are redworms or were last time I spoke to a mate of mine. with several book behind him who is a worm composting expert.
What is also being missed re Eisenia fetida and Eisenia andrei is that both species are red when small and don't develop the yellow bands (Eisenia fetida) until they reach sexual maturity. Both species live for quite a long time 5-7 years. and tend to occupy the same niche. In that they are shallow to surface living worms.
My mate when doing his MSc in composting told me some interesting stories when ordering and receiving worms from breeders. One famous company sent him dendrobenas as Eisenia fetida. Oooops!

The longest living earth worm and deepest are Lumbricus terrestris (Lob worms or in N America nightcrawlers), which can and do live 20 years and as deep as 6 ft. Dendrobenas are a medium depth worm 2-3 ft and quite hard to breed.

 

[sam vimes]

Dendrobenas are a medium depth worm 2-3 ft and quite hard to breed.

How/why have they become the prevalent farmed worm for bait? I know I'd be quite happy to buy what some are calling redworms (Eisenia andrei it would seem) if could. The current reality is that it's lobworms or dendros. Both are invariably too big for my liking and the use I have for them.

 

[nottskev]

I can't find a direct answer as to why dendro's. It seems reasonable to assume they must be the carp of the worm world - easy to breed, robust, put on weight quickly, tolerant of a range of conditions, happy to live in small featureless containers.....

Googling vermiculture, Nederland comes up a bit. That other Queen Elizabeth in 1565 invited 4000 Dutch refugees, whom she called "England's most ancient and familiar neighbours" to settle in Norfolk. Coming over here, with their dykes, windmills, engineering and architectural skills, land reclamation, canaries, two-horse-ploughing, a fair chunk of our vocabulary and Total Football. The Dutch may have taken composting worm tech forward, too.

Here's an in-depth article about my local worm farm. Next time I go I'll quizz the dude about species.

A Worm's Eye View

Worm farming, A worm's eye view, dendras, drendrobeanas, dendrabenas

www.matchangler.com

It's called Waggler Worms. Wiggle and waggle coincidentally derive from Dutch wiggelen ( "to wobble, to wiggle") or wiegen (= "to rock")
It all adds up.

 

[markcw]

When I lived in Warrington , I would take a couple of bait tubs to a road around the corner from me ,
After it had rained the pavements were full of redworms , these had come from the grass verges at the side of the road or the verges were there was a public footpath across some land towards the swing bridge at Stockton heath . The footpath across the land also had plenty of worms on it .
I am saying redworms because when I was a kid we had an old Belfast sink in the garden that was full of them , This had the contents of parents teapot ( no tea bags ,just ,tea leaves in it) poured onto it daily .
A quick turn over with a small trowel soon had enough worms to go fishing , This was about 60 years ago
As for the grass verges near where I lived , they were visited on a damp night and a 3 pint bait tub was soon filled with lobworms.
I got some funny looks walking down the road picking worms up and when creeping about on the grass verges .

 

[Peter Jacobs]

When I was a nipper I had a regular supply of small worms from my grandfather’s compost heaps. He had one on each of his two allotments.

Whatever species they were I never knew but the fish seemed to love them and they were free. Alternatively gentles we’re only available from the tackle shop and we didn’t have one locally.

 

[rayner]

I used to collect large worms from the side of a stream. Not lobs, they head what could be described as a steel grey coloured head. Chub on the Trent loved them. The worms were under a patch of what I thought was knotweed.
About red worms, their length does not exceed more than 3" brandlings are longer,
I used to collect reds from my brother's compost heap he did not keep the c heap due to his extension. Now I get them from stables.

 

[john step]

Here you go. These are from my wormery and I have always called them redworm. When broken there is no discernable colour in the juice.
Looking at the flow chart I am still undecided!
tiny image host

 

[The bad one]

How/why have they become the prevalent farmed worm for bait? I know I'd be quite happy to buy what some are calling redworms (Eisenia andrei it would seem) if could. The current reality is that it's lobworms or dendros. Both are invariably too big for my liking and the use I have for them.

Dendros as I said are difficult to breed for the home breeder. I should have made that more clear in my first post. From a professional breeders point of view, they have perfected the conditions to make breeding them easier. The methods used by the pro breeders is quite technical and scientific.
I think Kev's analysis of them is about right because as far as the fishing trade goes, they are acceptable to anglers, don't come with old wife's tales that may or may not be true attached to them and can be harvested at various sizes.

Much play has been made about digging in horse muck for redworms, which in reality are mostly E fetida. What is not talked about is the chemical composition of that muck. Horse muck has a high concentration of ammonia, urea, etc which is the kiss of death to worms when fresh. E fetida seem to have a higher tolerance of it than most other worms which it kills and are the first worms to colonise such heaps.

 

[The bad one]

As to the yellow discharge from E fetida, it's the way the worms get rid of the moisture and toxins as they munch through the decomposing/rotting material when feasting on horse muck. I use a lot of E fetida but out of my wormery or small soil garden. Interestingly the yellow fluid in them is minimal or not present at all. E fetida has accounted for some big fish for me over the years. many double figure bream, tench, chub over 5 lb and perch to 3 lb. I have no fear or reservations about using them and stand on the side of it's an old wife's tail. The only proviso I say is use worms that have as little yellow fluid in them by cleaning them off by putting them in a bucket of moist not wet plain soil for a week or so.

 

[wegotworms]

Hi gents, if you are looking for dendros, take a look at our website, www.wegotworms.co.uk, all our prices include express shipping and vat

 

[rayner]

Here you go. These are from my wormery and I have always called them redworm. When broken there is no discernable colour in the juice.
Looking at the flow chart I am still undecided!
tiny image host

The length of the worm below the matchbox is to my mind a brandling, the stretched-out appearance suggests so, reds do not stretch out when they move, The smaller worm could be a red, reds do not exceed 3" in length.
In my opinion.

 

[sam vimes]

Is the "redworm" that folks are talking about on the Imperial College flow chart or is everyone agreed that it's the Eisenia andrei?

Sometimes I really detest angling with its myriad of indistinct and unquantified (or simply made up) words and terms. I appreciate that all words are made up at some point in time, but angling needs its' own dictionary at times

Parabolic! Real word. Absolute nonsense in regards to a fishing rod. Marketing nonsense that has come to mean something indistinct or variable to anglers, though whatever it means is a long way from the real meaning.

Ultra Light, Lightweight etc etc. The weight of something is easily quantifiable but often isn't with regards to angling products. It sometimes surprises me that tackle companies haven't ended up in court for breaches of advertising standards.

Caster (not castor that some use), leger (or ledger) and more. Good luck finding these in a dictionary with a definition that relates to the way we use them.

 

[The bad one]

Is the "redworm" that folks are talking about on the Imperial College flow chart or is everyone agreed that it's the Eisenia andrei?

No Chris I can't see it there. The nearest to it are what they call Little tree worm Satchellius mammallis and they are not it.

 

[The bad one]

If you want to get deep into ID of earthworms this might help you https://www.earthwormsoc.org.uk/identification
There is a Facebook group as well https://www.facebook.com/groups/1059301190824485/
Can't vouch for how good or bad it is, as I'm not a member as it's a closed group,