Rudd and Roach

[theartist]

Don't want to go off topic on the 'How did you get on thread' but the picture of the rudd/roach got me thinking about the rudd that I've caught around the country that aren't true rudd.They seem to pop up everywhere but in tiny numbers. Unless it's a proper rudd water all the rudd I get seem to be lone fish that are roach coloured and only the fins and mouths indicate either a percentage of rudd in appearance.

Rather than true hybrids, as there are no true rudd in many of these waters are they roach that have still got the rudd gene from a cross breeding many generations back?

 

[Keith M]

Rudd


Roach


As the photos above show here is quite a marked difference between a Rudd and a Roach in most of my local waters; although the Rudds golden colour can be very subdued in some waters I've fished. The slightly rearer position of the Rudds dorsal fin and its slightly upturned mouth is usually a sure sign it's a Rudd unless it's a hybrid of course.

Keith

 

[thecrow]

Not sure but wouldn't the only way to tell be DNA ? but then would a dna base line for true Rudd be needed? where would that come from I think if it looks more Rudd than roach its a Rudd

 

[theartist]

Rudd


Roach


As the photos above show here is quite a marked difference between a Rudd and a Roach in most of my local waters; although the Rudds golden colour can be very subdued in some waters I've fished. The slightly rearer position of the Rudds dorsal fin and its slightly upturned mouth is usually a sure sign it's a Rudd unless it's a hybrid of course.

Keith

That's the difference between true rudd and roach Keith which is obvious but what about those inbetween and where do they get them genes from, here's one that would have been thrown back as a 'roach' but it has a small percentage of rudd in it. The photo's a bit blurry but you can see the upturned mouth and fin colouration compared to your roach pic yet it's got roach coloured flanks.

View image in gallery​

 

[barbelboi]

I believe that there is also a yellow finned rudd...............

 

[Mark Wintle]

Two types of roach; 'normal' and 'golden'. Three types of rudd; 'normal', 'golden' and 'yellow fin'.

The Artist's pictures look to be of a rudd as does the one on the other thread.

Very little evidence to prove that populations of roach exist with 'a little bit of rudd' in them or vice versa. First generation hybrids common enough but second generation extremely rare as are back crosses (hybrid x pure species). Loads on this with some very interesting pictures in my two roach books.

Whilst the sheen of a fish can help in identifying a roach from a rudd it is very much secondary to the primary features of dorsal position, mouth, and if you dissect the fish the pharyngeal teeth. DNA is the best of course. To get a representative DNA sample for roach or rudd you would take 30 fish from 30 different waters and check each one to eliminate obvious hybrids and expect to get a baseline profile.

 

[sam vimes]

Colouration differences seem to cause anglers all sorts of angst when it comes to identifying roach and rudd. I also believe that people are generally far too quick to jump to a "hybrid" conclusion when colour variations leads to doubt. Hybridisation between roach and rudd is nowhere near as prevalent as many would have you think. Roach/bream is a different kettle of fish. Hybrids are much more likely between these two species

When it comes to telling between roach and rudd, I've always gone by the slope of the mouth in combination with the position of the dorsal. Doing it that way has meant that I've never come to the conclusion that I've caught a roach/rudd hybrid. I dare say that I may have been wrong on occasion, but not too often. Don't go by colouration as a prime indicator, environmental influences can play a far bigger part in colouration than genetics ever will.

 

[theartist]

It's amazing how often potential record roach are scrutinised for being rudd hybrids though.

 

[peter crabtree]

What's this then?

 

[john step]

Bit of bream and something? Rudd?

The thing that really puzzles me is how did two different but similar species come to be in the same waters. I get the divergence bit from an original common ancestor but how did they both turn up in these islands together without converging into a single species again.
I cant think they arrived at vastly different historic times as its only about 12000 years ago these islands were covered in deep ice, so both have arrived since.

 

[S-Kippy]

Bream x roach x sprat hybrid.

 

[sam vimes]

What's this then?

Difficult to say with the mouth being open. First reaction is roach, but the dorsal is a little far back and the scales a bit small. Probably a bit of bream in the mix. At that size, I'd not be overly fussed by a mis-identification.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a few more dubious ones.

 

[binka]

Around four years ago I was knocking some clonking, scale perfect rudd out of a local Stillwater.

I'm still undecided to this day but I reckon there's a bit of bream to the mouth...



In every way they were behaving like true rudd in their feeding, I'm happy enough to go with it either way as they were really stunning fish to catch.

 

[sam vimes]

As far as I'm concerned, that's a roach. The mouth isn't obviously upturned and the start of the dorsal is directly above the start of the pelvic fin.

http://idlersquest.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/confounded-fish-roach-rudd-and-their.html

 

[binka]

As far as I'm concerned, that's a roach. The mouth isn't obviously upturned and the start of the dorsal is directly above the start of the pelvic fin.

Idler's Quest: Confounded Fish! - Roach, Rudd, and their Mules

The picture only shows it to a slighter degree but they were really deep golden flanked fish, way more than any roach I've ever caught.

Appreciate what you say about the fins, if it's a roach then I'm claiming a new pb significantly more than my current 2lb 3ozs

Ah...

Hang on, I don't recall ever weighing them mg:

 

[robtherake]

I thought roach at first glance. Lateral line count (roughly - there's a thumb in the way!) is 48, with roach listed at 38-48 and hybrids as 48-52. No wonder there's confusion.

 

[sam vimes]

The picture only shows it to a slighter degree but they were really deep golden flanked fish, way more than any roach I've ever caught.

Appreciate what you say about the fins, if it's a roach then I'm claiming a new pb significantly more than my current 2lb 3ozs

Ah...

Hang on, I don't recall ever weighing them mg:

It's too easy to go on colouration alone and be lead up the garden path. In my experience, the water colour makes more difference to fish colouration than any other factor. The most vivid coloured fish tending to come from clear water venues. A local pit went mucky for the best part of a year due to flooding. Perch, roach, rudd, pike and carp all went from vividly coloured to washed out in that time. Now it's cleared up again, they are back to being rather lovely by comparison.

 

[Tee-Cee]

Well, I'd happily go to my grave thinking that a true roach - looks spot on to me, but then I'm no expert. Quite true about colouration on the flanks; I've caught some (in a bag of fish) that have a wonderful sheen along the flanks from waters thought to hold only 'true' roach, but with this scale count business I'm beginning to doubt................

Still, a wonderful fish and I'd run with the new PB, binka!

 

[chub_on_the_block]

Looks a true roach to me as well. In my opinion one of the things too look for is the red eyes of true roach. Rudd eyes are yellow and the red is lost in all roach hybrids.

 

[no-one in particular]

Apparently for roach there are normally only one or two scales between the tip of the pelvic fins and the anal fins, while on the roach there are five. I can count five in the picture above.