Still the Same Skill in Modern Fishing as there was 30 Years Ago?

Graham Whatmore

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Basic requirements to catch fish:- 1 rod, 1 reel with line to which is attached 1 float or lead weight and 1 hook with a bait on.

That is the simple basic method and you can vary that set up as much as you like with all sorts of fancy bits and pieces and names but it is only a variation on the basic method. That of course, is only my opinion.
 

dezza

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You have made a point there Derek.

In the world of fly fishing and to a certain extent lure fishing, little has changed. Of course new fly patterns come and go and then we get the likes of the Blobs. In the past we had the Vivas and things that looked like dead budgies!, all designed to take as much of the skill away as possible.

But there are plenty of days when these things do not work, and a good thing too.

In lure fishing it is the increased use of soft plastics and maybe spinner baits that are now producing the goods.

But in fly fishing particularly, you still need to cast well and accurately to catch lots of fish. Poor casters who know where to cast will always beat good casters who don't of course, but arm a good caster with excellent watercraft and fish watch out.

Much the same thing with lure fishing of course.
 

Cakey

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will will have to beg to differ but I think me and you are more skillful than 30 years ago

---------- Post added at 11:54 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------

I know lets ask Sweepslad who says "Hello to you all.I've been fishing again for a year or so,after a 30 year break,things have changed somewhat in the meantime so expect there will be many questions. "
 

The bad one

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Basic requirements to catch fish:- 1 rod, 1 reel with line to which is attached 1 float or lead weight and 1 hook with a bait on.

That is the simple basic method and you can vary that set up as much as you like with all sorts of fancy bits and pieces and names but it is only a variation on the basic method. That of course, is only my opinion.

Yes Graham all variations on a theme but is that not a given if you angle and are an angler?
But the variation on a theme is where the skill comes in. Line strengths, diameters, hook size, patterns, hair rig, no hair rig, floats, float design, bait, etc, knowledge, experience of where to fish and place a bait, all have to be considered to maximise the catching of fish, do they not?
 

Graham Marsden

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An excellent article by Philip, no doubt about that, and some of his points I agree with 100%. However, I disagree with several of the points he makes. Or at least I have to disagree to some extent.

Again, I’ll comment point by point.

First though, I recognise now that the title of my article, ‘Has the Skill Gone out of Fishing?’ is the cause of much of the misunderstandings that have arisen. The original article was written for Coarse Fisherman magazine several years ago and it was their choice of title, not mine. The FM article was a complete and updated rewrite of that but I kept the title, which was a mistake. I should have altered it to, ‘Has Some of the Skill gone out of Fishing’. Which puts a different light on things and will perhaps change the minds of some who have grasped the title with both hands and posted entirely on that basis rather than the body of the article. I’m sure some have posted without actually reading further than the title.

Philip wrote: (Graham suggests that) "……anyone can now be an expert by picking up any number of magazines or DVDs on offer and copying the next guy.”

No I didn’t write that, I wrote: “With the aid of newspapers, magazines, radio, TV, DVDs and the internet, the world is a much, much smaller place than it used to be and budding anglers can soak up years of experience in a very short time indeed.”

Gaining experience in a short time is much, much different to becoming an expert.

Philip: “If……fishing has become as Graham suggests, nothing more than a lottery with each angler just waiting for their turn for the buzzer to sound, then how come we still see majority of the fish being caught by the minority of the anglers?”

Because better anglers will still do everything better in spite of the waters, the tackle, the bait, and the knowledge being presented on a plate for them. You can get everything ‘off the shelf’, both literally and figuratively these days. Travel, even worldwide is easier so you can get to more and better venues, all the tackle and bait (all those varieties of pellets and boilies!) you’ll ever need can be bought from a tackle shop or on line. And as for knowledge; newspapers, more fishing magazines than we’ve ever had, videos, DVDs, websites, podcasts, forums, blogs, ebooks……..

There is no way I’m suggesting that there is now no skill required in fishing, but by Christ you’ve got a hell of head start in acquiring the necessary skill and maintaining it than you had a few decades ago.

Philip: “Graham suggests that the ultimate rig is with us, the bolt rig. We have evolved our tactics to the point where we now have a rig upon which the fish hook themselves; the angler has become an accessory to the catching. The bolt rig has replaced the individual skills of the angler, a case of hail the king, the bolt rig has arrived! But has it really ...or was it with us all along anyway?”

Again, Philip is attributing words to me that I never used. I never once described the bolt rig as the ‘ultimate’ rig. I described it as the ‘optimum’ rig. Optimum means ‘most favourable or advantageous’, which suggests we still have options, while ultimate suggests there is nothing else. Or as Philip says (see later), “The ultimate rig would catch every fish every time we cast it in.”

Philip asks if the bolt rig has been with us all along. And then launches into a big list of methods that utilise the bolt rig principle, methods that in some way offer some form of resistance to the fish when they take the bait.

Of course the bolt rig principle has been with us all along! Every tackle we use offers some degree of resistance, and often enough of it to cause the fish to bolt. But it needed someone to recognise the advantage of resistance if it was offered in the right way and develop / evolve it to the degree you see it today. There is a big difference in fish hooking themselves against a few split shot on a float rig and hooking themselves on a tackle designed to do just that with a relatively short hook link attached to a 4oz lead!

Philip: “You could actually argue that anglers today are demonstrating greater skills as they understand why the rigs are working as they do rather than fishing in ignorance like their predecessors 30 years back.”

That’s like saying the Wright brothers, Cayley, Langley, Lilienthal, et al, who invented / developed aircraft knew less about flight than the people who fly in planes today. Wasn’t it the predecessors who invented / evolved the bolt rig over the years and therefore demonstrated a true understanding? The modern angler just uses it.

Philip: “As for the point about the bolt rig being the ultimate rig, I would say that such a thing does not exist. The ultimate rig would catch every fish every time we cast it in. It’s clearly not the bolt rig and let’s hope such a rig never arrives.”

Well, we agree there. That’s why I never said it was the ultimate rig.

Philip: “Graham suggests changes to modern setups have become nothing more than “mere variables”. He suggests in the associated forum thread that a bolt rig is only about picking the right weight of lead and correct length of hook link. But is it really? What about the hooking arrangement? What about the length of the hair? What about the position of the hair in relation to the hook? What about the model of hook? What about the position of the bait on the hair? What about not using a hair?” He continues with several more paragraphs about how you can alter the hair rig.

The bolt rig and the hair rig are two different things. My comments about the bolt rig are solely about that. You can use the hair rig with any kind of rig; running, free-lining, float fishing, etc. It’s the bolt rig / hair rig combination, in its various guises, that has become the optimum rig.

Philip: “But what is a boilie? How about this as a reasonable general definition: “a combination of ingredients rolled into a ball and boiled? I'll say that again : “a combination of ingredients” rolled into a ball and boiled. The point is, not all boilies are the same and we still have to pick and choose the one that’s right on the day.”

I agree, but it doesn’t change the point I made that boilies and pellets are the optimum bait of the modern angler.

Philip then writes several paragraphs about targeting specific species and that it was no different yesteryear.

Consider this then:
1. An angler fishes pellets on 10lb line, offered on a bolt rig / hair rig combination all season round, catching barbel and chub.
2. An angler fishes the same way for barbel in summer and then fishes bread flake on a light leger or cage feeder and 5lb line in winter to catch chub.

Question: Which angler is specifically targeting barbel in summer and chub in winter and therefore showing a greater range of skills?

Philip then writes several more paragraphs about watercraft now and then, but my article was about the standard (optimum) rig and bait.

Philip: “The fact is there will be 1000001 things that could be defined an angling skill so when someone talks about the loss of angling skills what exactly do they mean?”

Well, I meant that most anglers today fish with the optimum (standard) rig and bait which is bolt rig / hair rig, boilie / pellet for most bottom feeding fish and that they don’t have much imagination when it comes to anything else.

Philip: “The fact is just about every writer (including Graham) who bemoans the loss of angling skills always fails to mention that the modern angler has had to acquire a whole NEW set of skills to be successful.”

I didn’t bemoan anything, I commented on the fact that many of today’s anglers look no further than the standard method and standard bait, whatever they’re fishing for, apart from predators.

Philip: “In my opinion however, whilst advances will continue to be made the one thing that will ensure the ultimate rig or bait will never come into widespread use is the anglers themselves. Why? Because if the challenge and anticipation of the sport disappears no one will be interested anymore and fishing will cease to exist. So even if the optimum method or bait did arrive I suspect the majority of anglers would turn their back on it as there would be no merit or challenge in using it."

The ultimate method and bait will never arrive, on that I do agree.

However, the optimum method and bait has already arrived and angling is much less popular than it was. Of course this isn’t all down to the standard method and bait, but it’s played its part. Fortunately anglers still have a choice, they don’t have to fish any particular method and bait and can choose to target specific species with a variety of methods and baits. It's already happening but this will be more of a trend in future years as anglers realise that it’s not all about using the most efficient method and bait; not all about the catch. It’s also about how much enjoyment you get whilst fishing, which is why many anglers, for instance, choose to float fish at times when they know they could catch more fish by legering.

Philip: “The bottom line is that the modern angler is catching a fish that could not be caught before so you have to wonder how at the same time he can also be considered to be losing skills or being less skilful than his counterpart 30 years earlier?”

I agree, the modern angler is indeed catching fish that were much more difficult to catch before. And that’s due to us arriving at the optimum method and bait that was developed by a previous generation and has consequently made things so much easier for today’s angler.
 

Graham Marsden

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Hassle? You obviously weren't around during the barbel wars, when the trolls invaded FM and demonstrated amazing skills in throwing tantrums and generally hurling infantile abuse.

I believe they have their very own website to do this on now, where anyone with aspirations of gutter crawling can call anyone they don't like a very bad and naughty name. As long as it keeps them off here I'm all for it!
 

Stealph Viper

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Perhaps, what is needed is a masterclass in all things Fishing.

If someone wants to learn a new skill, then someone who is local to them, can offer them their expertise, for the price of their days fishing.

It would give them time to get to know each other, and allow some skills and knowledge to be passed on to someone else.

Most people will have the rods and reels, they may need to borrow a float or a feeder or something, but they will probably have the main items required for a days fishing.

Just a passing thought, that might lead to something new and different for some FM members.

It might even be Carp Fishing, take 2 or 3 rods, show them what to do, cast out the rods and then assign a rod to them, if they don't have their own.

You might find a new fishing buddy as well :wh
 

Stealph Viper

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Aha, the skill is in learning the Technique, the catching of the fish is the bonus.

Or, is it the other way around ??

Anyway, it's easy to read about a technique, but, nothing beats being shown a technique.

Come on all you old timers, get on the banks and give us young ones your expertise :wh
 

Philip

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I cant answer Graham's reply as I wanted as I gave up trying to work out how to colour or format text with BB codes . It would be nice to have some basic formatting icons like there used to be in the past, bold, underline etc that we just click...Annoying but ok, I'll stick to just a couple of points....

First, sorry for the couple of misquotes, they were not intentional and it would have made no difference to what I wrote.

Second I will stick to one quote from Graham as I think it sums things up very well. Graham asks...

Consider this then:
1. An angler fishes pellets on 10lb line, offered on a bolt rig / hair rig combination all season round, catching barbel and chub.
2. An angler fishes the same way for barbel in summer and then fishes bread flake on a light leger or cage feeder and 5lb line in winter to catch chub.

Question: Which angler is specifically targeting barbel in summer and chub in winter and therefore showing a greater range of skills?

How can you possibly say whose using the greater range of skill from that ? Were are they casting? Have they made any modifications to tackle or rigs based on experiences gained during the session ? Is one angler fishing a private water to himself and the other is fishing for pressured fish against other good anglers ? Did the guy using bread flake for Chub also catch some Barbel ? ...I could list 1001 other factors to take into account. There is not enough information in your example to judge who is using the greater range of skill.

In my opinion this is EXACTLY demonstrating the problem Graham. You are totally focused on one guy using a light ledger and bread and the other using a bolt rig and pellets and you want people to judge the range of skill from that alone. There is ALOT more to fishing skills than that.
 
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dezza

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I cant answer Graham's reply as I wanted as I gave up trying to work out how to colour or format text with BB codes . It would be nice to have some basic formatting icons like there used to be in the past, bold, underline etc that we just click...Annoying but ok, I'll stick to just a couple of points....

First, sorry for the couple of misquotes, they were not intentional and it would have made no difference to what I wrote.

Second I will stick to one quote from Graham as I think it sums things up very well. Graham asks...



How can you possibly say whose using the greater range of skill from that ? Were are they casting? Have they made any modifications to tackle or rigs based on experiences gained during the session ? Is one angler fishing a private water to himself and the other is fishing for pressured fish against other good anglers ? Did the guy using bread flake for Chub also catch some Barbel ? ...I could list 1001 other factors to take into account. There is not enough information in your example to judge who is using the greater range of skill.

In my opinion this is EXACTLY demonstrating the problem Graham. You are totally focused on one guy using a light ledger and bread and the other using a bolt rig and pellets and you want people to judge the range of skill from that alone. There is ALOT more to fishing skills than that.


The answer to that one is number 2 of course.

All the other parameters that Philip lists don't come into it. We are looking at two different styles of fishing with two different baits and two different ways of hooking those baits. The two different styles each require different skills. With the bread flake link leger set up, you are going to have to strike the bite when it comes. I have fished for chub on rivers long enough to know that most times they don't hook themselves. In fact chub have a habit of pulling at a bait without mouthing it.

I have watched them.

Number two has double the skills required compared to number one. It's as simple as that.
 

Stealph Viper

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Sorry, Ron you are talking out of your Rear.

How does fishing a piece of bread on a ledger differ from fishing a pellet on a ledger, they are both cast out in an aim to catch fish.

If both have a similar set up, except of course the main lines are different, pellet is hair rigged and the bread is squeezed on to a size 4 hook say, if they are both fishing with a ledger what is the difference ??

Are you saying, it takes more skill to catch on bread than on pellet ??
 

Graham Marsden

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I cant answer Graham's reply as I wanted as I gave up trying to work out how to colour or format text with BB codes . It would be nice to have some basic formatting icons like there used to be in the past, bold, underline etc that we just click...Annoying but ok, I'll stick to just a couple of points....

You've got all those Philip, you just haven't switched them on in your User CP (Top left on the green bar). Anyway, I've done it for you so you can disagree with me in colour and bold now:D

---------- Post added at 07:48 ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 ----------

First, sorry for the couple of misquotes, they were not intentional and it would have made no difference to what I wrote. Second I will stick to one quote from Graham as I think it sums things up very well. Graham asks...

Consider this then: 1. An angler fishes pellets on 10lb line, offered on a bolt rig / hair rig combination all season round, catching barbel and chub.

2. An angler fishes the same way for barbel in summer and then fishes bread flake on a light leger or cage feeder and 5lb line in winter to catch chub.

Question: Which angler is specifically targeting barbel in summer and chub in winter and therefore showing a greater range of skills?

How can you possibly say whose using the greater range of skill from that ? Were are they casting? Have they made any modifications to tackle or rigs based on experiences gained during the session ? Is one angler fishing a private water to himself and the other is fishing for pressured fish against other good anglers ? Did the guy using bread flake for Chub also catch some Barbel ? ...I could list 1001 other factors to take into account. There is not enough information in your example to judge who is using the greater range of skill. In my opinion this is EXACTLY demonstrating the problem Graham. You are totally focused on one guy using a light ledger and bread and the other using a bolt rig and pellets and you want people to judge the range of skill from that alone. There is ALOT more to fishing skills than that.

Philip: "You are totally focused on one guy using a light ledger and bread and the other using a bolt rig and pellets and you want people to judge the range of skill from that alone."

No, I'm not!

I thought I'd made it clear but obviously I haven't. The two anglers fish the same river and the same stretch and the same swims. One fishes with the same heavy tackle and bait in summer and winter alike to catch barbel in summer and chub in winter. In summer he catches barbel and chub, in winter he catches chub when it's too cold for barbel and both when it's mild.

He's not doing anything with his tackle and bait to select either barbel or chub, just fishing his heavy standard bolt/hair rig and boilie/pellet to catch whatever is feeding on the day.

The other angler specifically targets barbel in the summer with his heavy line and bolt/hair rig and boilie/pellet, and specifically targets chub in winter with his light tackle, link leger and flake hooked direct on his 8's hook to 5lb line.

So who is using the greater range of skills to specifically select his target species? And who is using the same gear and bait to catch whatever picks up the bait?

---------- Post added at 08:09 ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 ----------

What I don't understand is that we've had this discussion in a different way on other threads about anglers who win prizes off the weeklies for catching big chub when they've obviously been fishing for barbel with heavy gear.

Remember the fairly recent thread where we said how sad it was that someone had won the weekly award for a big chub that had been caught on heavy barbel gear and a boilie and bolt rig and someone who had caught a slightly lesser fish, but had obviously been targeting chub, with chub gear and bait, had won nothing?

Read Dave Slater's post about how he fishes for the big chub he catches. Who would you give an award to between Dave who specifically targets chub with chub gear and bait and someone who fishes the same swims with the same gear and bait he's been using all summer for barbel?

Which angler is using the greater range of skills; which one is specifically selecting his target species with no compromise, and using the most appropriate tackle and bait?

Who would you give the award to?

And come on, let's not throw any red herrings into the mix by suggesting the barbel angler (and let's hope for a chub) may have made some intricate modifications to his tackle and stuff like that. Stick to what's presented above.
 

dezza

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Sorry, Ron you are talking out of your Rear.

How does fishing a piece of bread on a ledger differ from fishing a pellet on a ledger, they are both cast out in an aim to catch fish.

If both have a similar set up, except of course the main lines are different, pellet is hair rigged and the bread is squeezed on to a size 4 hook say, if they are both fishing with a ledger what is the difference ??

Are you saying, it takes more skill to catch on bread than on pellet ??

I am comparing a bolt rigged hair rigged pellet or boilie with a link legered piece of flake, crust or paste using say a quiver tip or rod tip as the bite indicator.

There is one hell of a difference.
 

Stealph Viper

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So are you saying that you can not ledger a pellet using a bolt rig and use the rod tip or a quiver as a bite indicator ??

Of course you are not.

You are saying that the only skill required to fish bread flake is that you may have to strike at the bite indication.

So there is more skill required in tearing off a piece of bread and squeezing it around the shank of a hook and then casting it to your chosen swim, than there is in, drilling out a pellet or gluing a pellet to a hair rig and casting that to your chosen swim.

I really don't think so, the skill comes in the angler and not what bait he is fishing with.

If the angler fishing with the Pellet and the bolt rig catches all season long, and the angler with the bread and link ledger catches all season long, is the bread angler more skillful than the pellet angler ??
 

Philip

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Thanks for sorting the icons, cool, now I can disagree in colour ! ;)

Philip: "You are totally focused on one guy using a light ledger and bread and the other using a bolt rig and pellets and you want people to judge the range of skill from that alone." No, I'm not! I thought I'd made it clear but obviously I haven't. The two anglers fish the same river and the same stretch and the same swims. One fishes with the same heavy tackle and bait in summer and winter alike to catch barbel in summer and chub in winter. In summer he catches barbel and chub, in winter he catches chub when it's too cold for barbel and both when it's mild. He's not doing anything with his tackle and bait to select either barbel or chub, just fishing his heavy standard bolt/hair rig and boilie/pellet to catch whatever is feeding on the day. The other angler specifically targets barbel in the summer with his heavy line and bolt/hair rig and boilie/pellet, and specifically targets chub in winter with his light tackle, link leger and flake hooked direct on his 8's hook to 5lb line. So who is using the greater range of skills to specifically select his target species? And who is using the same gear and bait to catch whatever picks up the bait?

No you didnt make it clear, and now you are beginning to give some more information its beginning to look like the guy fishing with flake could be using more skills....still not enough information to say 100% for sure in my opinion.

I don't mean this in a insulting way Graham but you do have a habit of coming back after the event and trying to change the goalposts to suit what your saying. You can force anyone to agree with your example if you add enough caveats ...after the event....

For example in your previous reply you suggested that the title of your article was misleading and that the title should not have been "Has the skill gone out of fishing ?" and instead it should have been "Has some of the skill gone out of fishing ?"

A couple of paragraphs after that you dismiss everything to I wrote about watercraft as you say your article was actually only about the optimum rig and bait!

Come on ! ...Your article wheter you intended it or not came across as a piece about angling sklills being lost and you even said that that the modern angler was using much less variety and skill than his counterpart 30 years ago, and I cant be the only person who thinks that as replies on this thread bear out.

…why don't you just say you actually meant to call your article "Have some of the skills gone out of fishing but I am only talking about guys fishing blindly with bolt rigs and bolies with no consideration for anything else?"

...you can cover all your bases if you try hard enough.
 

dezza

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Without going into too many tiresome explanations, might I suggest SV that you get out on your local river and get some experince with both styles of fishing.

I have spent 50 years plus, on and off, link legering with a quiver tip on a river. And at least 40 years using some sort of bolt rig.

I know which takes more skill!
 

Philip

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What I don't understand is that we've had this discussion in a different way on other threads about anglers who win prizes off the weeklies for catching big chub when they've obviously been fishing for barbel with heavy gear. Remember the fairly recent thread where we said how sad it was that someone had won the weekly award for a big chub that had been caught on heavy barbel gear and a boilie and bolt rig and someone who had caught a slightly lesser fish, but had obviously been targeting chub, with chub gear and bait, had won nothing? Read Dave Slater's post about how he fishes for the big chub he catches. Who would you give an award to between Dave who specifically targets chub with chub gear and bait and someone who fishes the same swims with the same gear and bait he's been using all summer for barbel? Which angler is using the greater range of skills; which one is specifically selecting his target species with no compromise, and using the most appropriate tackle and bait? Who would you give the award to? And come on, let's not throw any red herrings into the mix by suggesting the barbel angler (and let's hope for a chub) may have made some intricate modifications to his tackle and stuff like that. Stick to what's presented above.

Fine lets stick to whats above...and you dont come back after the event to add any caveats or change the goalposts...

Yes in the perfectly frame worked example structured for your side of the argument I would agree, I would give the award to the angler fishing specifically for Chub....but its not always as perfectly structured or clear as that is it. Your right lets stop throwing red herrings into the mix and stick to reality.

One angler is fishing a bolt rig and bolie
A guy next to him is fishing float and maggot

Who is using the most skill ? ...its IMPOSSIBLE to say as we dont have enough information and I maintain you cannot ascertain skill from rig and bait alone which is what you have been trying to do.
 
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