Twaite shad

preston96

Well-known member
I knew the Allis shad was a protected species and could not be fished for.....i understood it was still ok to fish for twaite shad.

I read in Coarse fisherman that both species are now a protected species and cannot legally be fished for.

I have had a quick google and it is all very confusing.....one " hit" even said anglers on the Wye and severn were being asked to give feedback on their twaite captures.

Twaite have been a closed season favourite of mine for many years, and like CF's contributor i didn't know it was supposedly illegal to fish for them now.

I don't want to do anything i shouldn't, if twaite need this action then so be it......but can anyone give me a link to where it catorgorically states they can't be fished for?
 

preston96

Well-known member
I'm not convinced that there aint been a mistake made Fred....the Allis has, as far as i know been protected for a few years now.....

The first part of your link simply says Shad...........do they really realise there are two variations?

Getting some Police forces to even know what a Shad is could be an uphill struggle let alone the fact there are two!!

I suppose i could call and see Sgt Ian Guildford and ask if he had training before his secondment!/forum/smilies/wink_smiley.gif
 

S-Kippy

Well-known member
Strange fish shad...fished the Wye for salmon years ago and after an accidental capture we decided to have a day on the shad simply to have a bit of sport.Great fun on light gear but if we'd realised we were fishing their spawning grounds we wouldn't have done it.

But at least I can say I've caught one.Prior to this they were just one of those strange fish on the cigarette cards that you weren't convinced really existed...like houting and green barbel !
 

preston96

Well-known member
<blockquote class=quoteheader>S-Kippy wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote>

Strange fish shad...fished the Wye for salmon years ago and after an accidental capture we decided to have a day on the shad simply to have a bit of sport.Great fun on light gear but if we'd realised we were fishing their spawning grounds we wouldn't have done it.

But at least I can say I've caught one.Prior to this they were just one of those strange fish on the cigarette cards that you weren't convinced really existed...like houting and green barbel !</blockquote>
you fish for salmon and make that statement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

S-Kippy

Well-known member
No I dont. I am older and much wiser now but at the time it seemed like a good idea.

A salmon on a fly by design remains my ultimate goal.I've had a few but never on a fly.
 
F

Fred Bonney

Guest
Further down PaulSome facts about shad <ul>[*]Two types of shad are found in Welsh rivers – Twaite and Allis. Both are protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act. [/list]

Which I suppose is different to

Allis shad is listed on Appendix II of the Bern Convention and Annexes II and V of the Habitats Directive. It is protected under Schedule 5 of the WCA 1981.
 

preston96

Well-known member
<blockquote class=quoteheader>Fred Bonney wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote>

Further down PaulSome facts about shad <ul>[*]Two types of shad are found in Welsh rivers – Twaite and Allis. Both are protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act. [/list]

Which I suppose is different to

Allis shad is listed on Appendix II of the Bern Convention and Annexes II and V of the Habitats Directive. It is protected under Schedule 5 of the WCA 1981.</blockquote>


Yep...i suppose that is a definite statement.

you know what mate.....it looks like i and many others have been breaking the acts for a good few years.......they certainly haven't made it very "known".

Still, i was in good company, the Tackle shops didn't know and neither did Bob in CF.

Hmmmmm..........why aint the Twaite on that second part though and what does "protected" mean in the first bit? It needs a definite statement, something along the lines of " Both Allis and Twaite shad cannot be fished for" to be printed on licences......along with anything else we can't try to catch.
 

preston96

Well-known member
<blockquote class=quoteheader>S-Kippy wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote>

No I dont. I am older and much wiser now but at the time it seemed like a good idea.

A salmon on a fly by design remains my ultimate goal.I've had a few but never on a fly. </blockquote>


The salmon are in the river for exactly the same reason as the Shad.....my point is how can you make the statement about shad and still fish for salmon?
 

GrahamM

Managing Editor
I must admit that when Bob showed me where he'd caught the shad I would have had a go for them myself had the time been right; like many others I didn't realise they were a protected species to the extent that you can't fish for them.

Like Paul says,it hasn't beenmade common knowledge.
 

Bob Roberts

Well-known member
I'm game for a sensible discussion on this topic providing it remains just that - SENSIBLE!

And polite.

For we know, much mischief is afoot here and I'd probably be best off leaving sleeping dogs lie.

First and foremost, a couple of facts. The feature in question was shot during May 2007 with the full knowledge of The Wye & Usk Foundation who are to all intents and purposes, gaurdians of this wonderfulriver. Advice was sought from various local interests, none of which had been made aware that any ban on catching shad by Brussels.

In the only other article I have ever written about the species (2005/6) I researched the shad and made it quite clear that the Allis was protected.

Of course, we anglers welcome all rulings by Brussels and would never question them, would we? After all, they are absolutely correct on the issues of immigration and the protection of all species of cormorant. No angler in his right mind would question either of those policies, would they, and they would never, ever take the law into their own hands...

The Dyfed-Powys police link relates to a shad awareness day held in 2008, a full year after we fished for them and I have to say the site isn't one on my list of favourites. As an awareness day then it clearlyfailed miserably because they didn't bother to put a press release out through the Angling Writers Association in the UK.

I could offer a link to an article in the Independent on Sunday, written by the Chairmen of The Angling Writers Association in which he announces he's going shad fishing and isn't sure whether it is legal or not - after making several calls to relevant bodies, including the EA, no-one could give him a definitive answer, so he was off anyway, confident that his jaunt would have no impact on the survival of the species whatsoever.

As Fred rightly points out (the),"Allis shad is listed on Appendix II of the Bern Convention and Annexes II and V of the Habitats Directive. It is protected under Schedule 5 of the WCA 1981."

But what of the twaite? I've had dealings with the quarter-of-a-Century oldWildlife and Countryside Act many times in the past. Most of you who have been out cutting your garden hedges in the past month have contravened it. Did you carry out a risk assessment for nesting birds? Did you document same assessment?

More importantly, has the whole River Wye been designated a tripple SI? I rather hope not as that will have a severe impact on the fishing, I imagine.

Worldwide the twaite shad is pretty widespread and is fished for in many countries. It is endangered in the UK for one reason only, that we have errected barrages in the form of weirs that they cannot negotiate. It was once a common spring migrant to practically every river in the country until the 17th Century when we harnessed the rivers for boat traffic.

Rod and line fishing for them will have no impact whatsoever on the success of the species. Man has chosen boats over shad. It's a little bit pointless to start worrying about the very rare catch-and-release, once-a-year hobbyist, don't you think?

As for holding a police awareness day, maybe a few more hours spent chasing burglars, muggers and drug dealers would be a more fruitful use of their time.
 
F

Fred Bonney

Guest
I don't know about you Paul , unlikely I think, there's no mischief on my partand I'm sure it was far from S-Kippy's mind too.

I cut my hedges in February, and they are now looking good, with a few nesting birds too!
 

Graham Whatmore

Senior Member
"More importantly, has the whole River Wye been designated a tripple SI? I rather hope not as that will have a severe impact on the fishing, I imagine."

Bob I do fervantly hope this isn't going to happen, it was bad enough when the salmon syndicates controlled most of the fishing with their inhuman policy of killing all coarse fish. They want the salmon to run up the Wye in the numbers that they once did but their concern is for the salmon fishing not the welfare of the salmon, if they really wanted to impact on salmon numbers they would ban trawling for them in the North Sea. I think I would pack up fishing if I couldn't have my days on this, the most beautiful of all our rivers - perish the thought.

They used to fish for shad around the Tewkesbury area years ago, it was a seasonal thing, not that I ever did, but I too was ignorant of this law and I suspect the majority of anglers, including the game anglers are also unaware of it. Perhaps it comes under the same heading as fishing rivers in the closed season laws that anglers chose to interpret in their own way /forum/smilies/wink_smiley.gif
 

preston96

Well-known member
So, after reading your post Bob.......i think we may be of the same opinion....that the faceless ones have possibly ballsed this one up?

I have fished for twaite shad on the Wyefor over 30yrs, they don't make the same runs that they did, i do have to admit that, but as you say they are still plentiful in areas they can accsess.

I still await a definite "rule" that without doubt says i cannot fish for Twaite shad.

I also hope the debate stays sensible, polite and constructive /forum/smilies/smile_smiley.gif
 

Peter Jacobs

Moderator
Staff member
"I also hope the debate stays sensible, polite and constructive "

As do I, so please take the following question in the spirit it is asked - Bob said -

"has the whole River Wye been designated a tripple SI? I rather hope not as that will have a severe impact on the fishing, I imagine.!

Now, bearing in mind that the whole of the Hampshire Avon Valley is designated as an SSSI, and noting that this river system gives us some of the best Coarse and Game fishing in the South, my question has to be: in what way Bob would this have a 'severe impact' on the fishing?
 

DZ

Well-known member
As far as the EA's Environmental Crime team (the bailiffs)are aware- you may fish for twaite shad...

...in fact you could argue a case for not even needing a rod licence!
 

Bob Roberts

Well-known member
Fred, you full wellknow the score on the mischief elsewhere!

/forum/smilies/i_dont_know_smiley.gif

Peter, many sites throughout the UK that are designated SSSIs do not allow access to angling.

With regard to interpretations of the law, I spoke with the EA about 'trout' fishing on my local rivers following a querry in my local paper angling column about the legality of what some anglers were calling 'trout' fishing. The ruling given to me was that if you catch a coarse fish 'by accident' when trouting, you should return it carefully and move to another swim. If you continued to catch coarse fish 'accidentally' then you should stop fishing altogether.

Now if we aply that logic to catching shad (more than a coarse fish -a bona fide protected species) by accident while trout fishing then you should probaly not be fishing anywhere on the river for <u>any</u> species during the periods when shad are running, in other words, from April to possibly July.

How would that sit with the wider game and coarse angling fraternity? Not well methinks.

Bearing in mind how few anglers have ever bothered to even try and catch a shad, how very few shad are caught in any given year, and that they are all returned safely to the water, are we not in danger of taking a very large sledgehammer to crack a very small nut?
 
F

Fred Bonney

Guest
In deed I do Bob, butI have trust intheteam on here now, making sure that mischief is short lived..

I think I would go on what DZ, our man at the EA, has to say on the subject .
 

preston96

Well-known member
<blockquote class=quoteheader>DZ wrote (see)</blockquote><blockquote class=quote>

As far as the EA's Environmental Crime team (the bailiffs)are aware- you may fish for twaite shad...

...in fact you could argue a case for not even needing a rod licence!</blockquote>
How do you work that one out DZ? and on what authority?
 
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