What makes a good Centrepin

[tigger]

Just viewing J W Young web site. I thought all their pins were true pins it appears all their pins are now running on bearings with the exception of the Atom of which there's only a 150 being made.

The only other true pin I can find is the Hardy.

There are a few other makers of true pins...Garry Mills (Gary made the Atom for youngs, infacthe makes their ball race reels also), Chris Lythe and there's another chap who makes some very nice looking reels, I think his name is David Brown.
There are others but I forget them just now. On the whole there arn't many who make them though. Apparently there's a lot more work goes into a bush and pi reel than there is a ball race reel.

 

[Philip]

Basically all this debate boils down to is that bush pins have a fundamental design flaw that lends itself to trotting a float and some people prefer.

The funny thing is I suspect that it been the bush pin that span smoother then the fans would have been extolling that as a virtue, not a problem.

 

[sam vimes]

Just viewing J W Young web site. I thought all their pins were true pins it appears all their pins are now running on bearings with the exception of the Atom of which there's only a 150 being made.

The only other true pin I can find is the Hardy.

Of the big brands, the only recent/current true pins I can think of are the Greys Bewick, Hardy Conquest and Youngs Atom. Then comes the likes of Mill Tackle Company (Garry Mills) reels and the Kingpin Zephyr. After that you are looking at Paul Witcher, Chris Lythe and Richard Carter (whether you can actually buy a new one of either is debatable). After that you are looking at the second hand market.

 

[sam vimes]

Basically all this debate boils down to is that bush pins have a fundamental design flaw that lends itself to trotting a float and some people prefer.

That premise is based on an assumption that bearings assessed a "flaw". I suspect that those old enough to have seen the introduction of bearing reels may see it the other way round and bearing reels introduced a flaw or addressed a problem that didn't really exist. My suspicion is that bearings did little but allow reels to be mass produced more easily and cheaply.

The funny thing is I suspect that it been the bush pin that span smoother then the fans would have been extolling that as a virtue, not a problem.

If you believe that long run times and little need for running in are a virtue in a pin, bearings are a godsend (and manufacturers will definitely like that). If you don't, then they aren't necessarily all they are cracked up to be. It's also not necessarily true that true pins aren't free running. They simply run and react differently to a bearing reel.

 

[trotter2]

I think you can still pick up Fred's reels ,least I hope so.

Paul Whiteing's site

I got quite friendly with Fred before he passed away, what a lovely guy he was.

 

[Philip]

That premise is based on an assumption that bearings assessed a "flaw". I suspect that those old enough to have seen the introduction of bearing reels may see it the other way round and bearing reels introduced a flaw or addressed a problem that didn't really exist. My suspicion is that bearings did little but allow reels to be mass produced more easily and cheaply.

So better mechanics in an easier to produce & cheaper package. Wheres the problem ?

If you believe that long run times and little need for running in are a virtue in a pin, bearings are a godsend (and manufacturers will definitely like that). If you don't, then they aren't necessarily all they are cracked up to be. It's also not necessarily true that true pins aren't free running. They simply run and react differently to a bearing reel.

I did a bit more thinking about this and you know what ? …if I am brutally honest - actually yes ! … I do like the fact my cheapo bearing reel runs really smooth and I really like the fact I can spin it for ages and watch it keep spinning I am actually quite obsessed by it …like those spinner things that have become all the rage of late. People like to spin things, kids with spinning tops …they spin it and they don’t want friction do they ..they want it to spin and keep spinning so yes I would say I am actually quite obsessed with spin times…the longer and the faster the better I recon and I think lots of other people are too …and I would also wager just about everyone who has ever brought a centerpin one of the first thing they did when they got it out of the box was to spin it as fast as they could and watch to see how long it spun for, in fact I think i will go and get a stop watch and time it over and over again on its next outing.

I also like the fact my super long spinning bearing pin is cheap and mass produced and I like the fact I only paid 30 quid for it and not 300 quid for it, I like this aspect that I am not being ripped off for a great bit of engineering and I applaud the manufacturers for turning to technology that allowed them to mass produce it and allow people like me to get this wonderful thing without having to fork out a ridiculous OTT shed load of cash.

In addition I also don’t like that idea of bushing reels imparting unnecessary friction that I don’t want. I don’t like the idea of it. I find the whole concept flawed and bad. I want a free running reel that I can then impart a flaw into myself if I wish. I don’t want the reel to have already decided for me that it will impart resistance and take that decision away from me, the angler.

So yes the more I think about it the less I like the idea of bushing pin and the more I like the idea of bearing pins & I could not care if that means the reel will not minutely slow down as the float reaches a slower current or slightly aid me in a wallis cast as I will rely on my own skill as an angler to slow the reel down and not resort or rely on my reel to make up for my angling inadequacies.

So in short yes I LOVE the idea of my mass produced cheap, super long & obsessively free spinning bearing pin and I think its MILES better than the flawed mechanics of aged and dated bushing pins and as literally the entire planet has replaced spinals with bearings I get the feeling more than a few people would see it like me but look really don’t take my word for it …you carry on with your bushing pins, well if you can still find them of course as hardly anyone makes them anymore, which is strange given how brilliant they apparently are. Still as long as you enjoy it that’s the main thing eh.

 

[sam vimes]

So better mechanics in an easier to produce & cheaper package. Wheres the problem ?

If you believe that spin times are remotely relevant to real fishing situations, there's no problem whatsoever. I'm more interested in how a reel performs in fishing situations. Low start up inertia, generally aided by lighter spools (if you want a reel to spin longer find one with a heavier spool), and responsiveness to changes in flow are far more important to me. I'm happy with that and am not remotely concerned with what anyone else chooses to buy.

There would have been a time when I'd have been mightily impressed with a reel that could spin forever. There's no denying that it's impressive to see. Now I've done a lot more trotting with various pins, both true and bearing, it's not something I find particularly relevant to actual fishing. It's the actual fishing bit that's important to me.

 

[Philip]

If you believe that spin times are remotely relevant to real fishing situations, there's no problem whatsoever. I'm more interested in how a reel performs in fishing situations. Low start up inertia, generally aided by lighter spools (if you want a reel to spin longer find one with a heavier spool), and responsiveness to changes in flow are far more important to me. I'm happy with that and am not remotely concerned with what anyone else chooses to buy.

There would have been a time when I'd have been mightily impressed with a reel that could spin forever. There's no denying that it's impressive to see. Now I've done a lot more trotting with various pins, both true and bearing, it's not something I find particularly relevant to actual fishing. It's the actual fishing bit that's important to me.

Ah well my outlooks far more basic, if a reel doesn’t spin you cant fish with it. So I would rather have something that based on a fundamental principle that allows it to turn as well as it can and then dumb it down if I have to than to start with something that is already mechanically flawed doesn’t turn as well from the start and I can do nothing about.

By the way …you keep saying mentioning people obsessed by spin times but you appear to be the only one who consistently brings them up.

 

[thecrow]

I like the fact I only paid 30 quid for it and not 300 quid for it, I like this aspect that I am not being ripped off for a great bit of engineering

Lots of the more pricey reels are touted as being hand made, that to me means that every part has been fashioned by hand, if a machine has been used the parts must imo remain controlled by hand. This is clearly not the case with the bulk of the manufacture seemingly machine made possibly even CNC which would mean that any number of them could be turned out but that would then lead to less exclusivity and probably a drop in price.

Are top price pins numbers kept low to purposely keep the price high using exclusivity as the reason? Looking at various websites it would seem to me that they are but it could also be down to how small the manufacturing base is which begs the question why not expand a little produce more sell more at a lower price? that though would reduce the exclusivity and therefor in some anglers eyes desirability and collectability.

 

[thecrow]

I think you can still pick up Fred's reels ,least I hope so.

Paul Whiteing's site

I got quite friendly with Fred before he passed away, what a lovely guy he was.

Yes they do come up for sale although I am not sure whether Paul is still the conduit for new ones.

 

[tigger]

So better mechanics in an easier to produce & cheaper package. Wheres the problem ?



I did a bit more thinking about this and you know what ? …if I am brutally honest - actually yes ! … I do like the fact my cheapo bearing reel runs really smooth and I really like the fact I can spin it for ages and watch it keep spinning I am actually quite obsessed by it …like those spinner things that have become all the rage of late. People like to spin things, kids with spinning tops …they spin it and they don’t want friction do they ..they want it to spin and keep spinning so yes I would say I am actually quite obsessed with spin times…the longer and the faster the better I recon and I think lots of other people are too …and I would also wager just about everyone who has ever brought a centerpin one of the first thing they did when they got it out of the box was to spin it as fast as they could and watch to see how long it spun for, in fact I think i will go and get a stop watch and time it over and over again on its next outing.

I also like the fact my super long spinning bearing pin is cheap and mass produced and I like the fact I only paid 30 quid for it and not 300 quid for it, I like this aspect that I am not being ripped off for a great bit of engineering and I applaud the manufacturers for turning to technology that allowed them to mass produce it and allow people like me to get this wonderful thing without having to fork out a ridiculous OTT shed load of cash.

In addition I also don’t like that idea of bushing reels imparting unnecessary friction that I don’t want. I don’t like the idea of it. I find the whole concept flawed and bad. I want a free running reel that I can then impart a flaw into myself if I wish. I don’t want the reel to have already decided for me that it will impart resistance and take that decision away from me, the angler.

So yes the more I think about it the less I like the idea of bushing pin and the more I like the idea of bearing pins & I could not care if that means the reel will not minutely slow down as the float reaches a slower current or slightly aid me in a wallis cast as I will rely on my own skill as an angler to slow the reel down and not resort or rely on my reel to make up for my angling inadequacies.

So in short yes I LOVE the idea of my mass produced cheap, super long & obsessively free spinning bearing pin and I think its MILES better than the flawed mechanics of aged and dated bushing pins and as literally the entire planet has replaced spinals with bearings I get the feeling more than a few people would see it like me but look really don’t take my word for it …you carry on with your bushing pins, well if you can still find them of course as hardly anyone makes them anymore, which is strange given how brilliant they apparently are. Still as long as you enjoy it that’s the main thing eh.

You could listen to this whilst watching your cheapo reel spinning round....

YouTube

maybe you'd prefer this version...

YouTube





Great in'it :w

 

[thecrow]

Why are some of the more expensive pins bearing reels? would that put the purist off?

If the cheaper end of the market start producing true pins will they still be better to use than bearing ones?

 

[tigger]

Why are some of the more expensive pins bearing reels? would that put the purist off?

If the cheaper end of the market start producing true pins will they still be better to use than bearing ones?

It's just down to build quality and materials used, plus a bit extra for the name I suppose.
I'm not a purist so I like and have both types of reels.

The cheaper end of the market are unlikely to make bush reels as they take more time to make. If they did manage to produce some then I think the cheapness would go out of the window.

 

[thecrow]

The cheaper end of the market are unlikely to make bush reels as they take more time to make. If they did manage to produce some then I think the cheapness would go out of the window.

I'm sure that the makers of the cheaper reels could if they wished produce a bush reel, once the tooling is set up any cost increase would imo be minimal because of the numbers produced.

The centrepin makers/buyers in this country remind me of what happened to the British motorcycle industry when bikes started arriving from Japan, they all criticised them as rubbish when in reality what the Japanese did was take British designs and improve them (at that time Triumph were still using pushrods) the rest is history.

I have seen a centrepin for sale where the number of perforations is a selling point, what next?

 

[sam vimes]

Why are some of the more expensive pins bearing reels? would that put the purist off?

The most expensive pins I own are bearing reels. I don't like the way they function as much as I do cheaper true pins I own. Nothing I own would currently be of any interest to purists or collectors.

If the cheaper end of the market start producing true pins will they still be better to use than bearing ones?

How's the Greys Bewick? A true pin that's hardly at the hugely expensive end of the scale (Needs to be bigger and the arbour shallower for me). Function is not necessarily a product of price tag. I wish there were more choice in true pins (without going second hand). I'd love to have a wide choice of reels that fulfil my other preferences for a reel beyond just being a true pin.

I see little reason why decent enough true pins couldn't be made for similar prices to some of the far eastern budget stuff. The snag is that they'd have to be assembled more carefully to stand any chance of being close to acceptable fresh out of the box. Hardy/Greys made a decent fist of it with the far eastern (Taiwan) Conquest/Bewick. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes with them and tried to charge for them with their brand premium. The basic function of either was easily good enough.

 

[thecrow]

The most expensive pins I own are bearing reels. I don't like the way they function as much as I do cheaper true pins I own. Nothing I own would currently be of any interest to purists or collectors.



How's the Greys Bewick? A true pin that's hardly at the hugely expensive end of the scale (Needs to be bigger and the arbour shallower for me). Function is not necessarily a product of price tag. I wish there were more choice in true pins (without going second hand). I'd love to have a wide choice of reels that fulfil my other preferences for a reel beyond just being a true pin.

I see little reason why decent enough true pins couldn't be made for similar prices to some of the far eastern budget stuff. The snag is that they'd have to be assembled more carefully to stand any chance of being close to acceptable fresh out of the box. Hardy/Greys made a decent fist of it with the far eastern (Taiwan) Conquest/Bewick. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes with them and tried to charge for them with their brand premium. The basic function of either was easily good enough.

As always what is considered expensive is always subjective, over £100 is expensive for me.

I agree that if the far eastern manufacturers were to make a cheap bush pin that quality control would need to improve quite a bit but I doubt those manufacturers would see that as a problem it hasn't been much of one with rods as far as I know.

Imo if a company chooses to move the manufacture of their products abroad they ought to keep the original one and not change completely until the foreign one is of the same standard.

 

[Philip]

If the cheaper end of the market start producing true pins will they still be better to use than bearing ones?

As long as it had a rickety old spindle that rattled and rubbed inside a bush each time you tilted it then I dont think the purists would have reason to complain. In fact it seems they would see it as a plus point :wh

That aside one additional factor not mentioned is maintenace - from what I understand bushing pins are marginally(?) more troublesome to maintain than bearing pins so even if the price was aligned thats another factor that may put people off.

 

[tigger]

As long as it had a rickety old spindle that rattled and rubbed inside a bush each time you tilted it then I dont think the purists would have reason to complain. In fact it seems they would see it as a plus point :wh

That aside one additional factor not mentioned is maintenace - from what I understand bushing pins are marginally(?) more troublesome to maintain than bearing pins so even if the price was aligned thats another factor that may put people off.

Why would it be a rickety old spindle?...Your just casting out yer bait trying to induce a take...pretty sad really Philip, especially as you really don't know what your talking about .

 

[Philip]

Why would it be a rickety old spindle?...Your just casting out yer bait trying to induce a take...pretty sad really Philip, especially as you really don't know what your talking about .

Maybe. ...but it got a bite from you didnt it

 

[tigger]

Maybe. ...but it got a bite from you didnt it

No, I didn't bite, just sucked it in and spat it out .