BAA fine for volunteer fatality.

[sam vimes]

Crikey , we've been rumbled . OK , you've got us bang to rights , all this club stuff is a conspiracy , and well done you for spotting it .

I'm just trying to work out how much I've managed to cream off from ordinary anglers. I'm tight so I reckon it'll only run into hundreds. Shame it's a negative number.

 

[no-one in particular]

Crikey , we've been rumbled . OK , you've got us bang to rights , all this club stuff is a conspiracy , and well done you for spotting it .

Its not a conspiracy, I didn't say it was, you may avoid what I say with mockery, that's fine and I am not blaming you personally, but don't expect me to be grateful for the system that you so admire or thank you for perpetrating it. It has not done me any favors in all the time I have been fishing, quite the opposite as I explained. You and many others will not like it but I have spoken as I have found, that's all.

 

[mikench]

Most if not all angling clubs are unincorporated associations and run not for profit. There is no shareholder fleecing the members and making money. The committee give their time for free and seek guidance from the members who have certain skills , legal and chainsaw to name but two. Surplus funds are retained to meet unexpected expenditure or planned expenditure which is non recurring. In the past those surpluses subsidised members who were retired or who were above a certain age and allowed to fish for free. One of my clubs employ a permanent person to carry out routine maintenance such as peg repairs, cutting back undergrowth, cutting grass and tidying up. Another club use the labour of members which may cease for certain tasks after this case. I doubt it will set a precedent as such cases turn on their own facts and it's a decision by magistrates.

Don't confuse these associations with commercials and remember accidents happen despite best endeavours and appropriate care and planning.

 

[terry m]

many syndicates and possibly some small clubs state a membership fee of £xx PLUS a specified number of attendances to work parties. Under those circumstances liability exposure is likely to be exacerbated further.

I am guessing that much pondering and soul searching will occur.

 

[nottskev]

Crikey , we've been rumbled . OK , you've got us bang to rights , all this club stuff is a conspiracy , and well done you for spotting it .

Calls to mind those quaint old-fashioned idioms - bees in the bonnet, bats in the belfry.....

 

[no-one in particular]

bb

Nothing personal Mark - in case you think I disagree with you on principle lol - but I think that's a travesty of the cooperative member involvement which is a good and healthy feature of angling clubs. Many maintenance jobs are straightforward, low-risk to no-risk for anyone with an ounce of common sense and fall into the 'many hands make light work' category, and joint working on waters is an expression of ownership and self-reliance. I've taken part in many such work parties, and the voluntary ethos of some of my local clubs is at the heart of their success in running good waters and keeping their members, and their good standing in local communities. The key point is to identify risk and plan to avert it, and forestry-type activities need special arrangements and skilled operators. That this was, apparently, neglected in this case is no good reason to prevent volunteers in general continuing to contribute work that's no more intrinsically dangerous than tidying up the average garden. On a weekly basis I get speculative men in vans door-knocking and leaflet-dropping, offering to cut my hedges, cut the grass, prune my trees etc. The prices they ask are often laughable, and I don't see why either I or fishing clubs should be compelled to employ them.

It's not up to me and I think your right, a bit of light work is not the problem and should carry on. However, I understand why it came to this, someone died and there had to be a proper investigation, that's the law and there were obvious mistakes and bad errors of judgement. Its a shame, it is up to individual clubs how they go forward. Insurances, risks assessments etc., I wouldn't know, not my field. I don't have any involvement with the club I belong to, they don't have any involvement with me. They have never asked me to join a work party, I wouldn't anyway, too old for that malarkey. I might not even join next year, I think I have only used their waters twice this year, been doing more sea fishing. It has become more attractive to me anyway, no clubs, no license, no close season, no silly rules, no committee, no fees to pay and no work parties and it is a lot more convenient for me, 10 min walk. It is safe, I might topple over into the drink but no falling branches to worry about. The amount of fresh water fishing I do, I still have a couple of free stretches available and day ticket waters, they should do me if I want to carry on fresh water.
I think the problem for clubs is recruitment and this won't help but in my opinion they are their own worst enemy in that respect and they are not exactly a barrel of laughs. Which is fine, as I said earlier I consider it nothing more than a business contract-a sale of purchase except it is not fine really, anyone remember when fishing was considered fun. It still just about is in some places. Anon...

 

[mikench]

Rhetorical questions of the day. What happens to that enormous fine and what was the point of imposing it on a not for profit angling association? They are not going to be repeat offenders and will just cease to exist probably. What is that silly TV quiz called again?

 

[John Aston]

The money goes to the Treasury I believe . It does seem a hell of big fine but maybe that reflects the severity of the offence . I don't know about the club's finances but I can think of a couple of big clubs which carry very large amounts of money in reserves . I suspect there was an element of 'pour encourager les autres ' in the fine and its attendant publicity ?

I don't think it's the end of the world for clubs but it is a wake up call to some to stop behaving like it's 1972 .

 

[bullet]

Thanks for posting this up, Terry.
It's probably about time my Club reviewed it's H and S policy, which is sure to open a can of worms!

In response to Mark G, you may not like Clubs but they provide a lot of fishing for very little money, and the ones I am involved with certainly don' t have anyone creaming money off.
One alternative is to lease private fishing, where the rights owner undertakes all the maintenance, I do this on a short local stretch and it costs me more a year than all my Club books do for about 5 years.

 

[steve2]

bb

I think the problem for clubs is recruitment and this won't help but in my opinion they are their own worst enemy in that respect and they are not exactly a barrel of laughs. Which is fine, as I said earlier I consider it nothing more than a business contract-a sale of purchase except it is not fine really, anyone remember when fishing was considered fun. It still just about is in some places. Anon...

Fishing was fun before it stopped being a pastime and started to become yet another money making business. A business where catching fish and more fish is now all that matters. With its participants chasing bigger and more fish on the latest must have tackle.
A pastime where people forgot the reason they first started.
I was as guilty of that as the next person.

 

[nottskev]

I doubt if there's anyone who wouldn't agree that a serious accident of the BAA sort should prompt review of practices, particularly those with intrinsic dangers. It doesn't help, though, if individuals cloud the issues by projecting their idiosyncratic personal angles - clubs are hotbeds of corruption, with officials on the take, reducing accessibility to waters and exploiting volunteer OAP suckers etc - in baseless sweeping generalisations which don't bear scrutiny.

 

[no-one in particular]

Thanks for posting this up, Terry.
It's probably about time my Club reviewed it's H and S policy, which is sure to open a can of worms!

In response to Mark G, you may not like Clubs but they provide a lot of fishing for very little money, and the ones I am involved with certainly don' t have anyone creaming money off.
One alternative is to lease private fishing, where the rights owner undertakes all the maintenance, I do this on a short local stretch and it costs me more a year than all my Club books do for about 5 years.

I never said anyone is creaming off, I said someone is getting a rake off, it has a different connotation, people distort what I say quite frequently. A rake off might be small, it might be very small it is just in my experience where money is involved someone will be getting something no matter how small it is. With clubs I don't know and maybe I should not have said that but I have a couple of times in the past tried to follow the money in clubs , I cannot remember why I did that, but I do remember I hit a dead end!
As to clubs providing a lot of fishing, they do, because they have virtually taking it all over; at a cost to the hobby in my opinion and I have explained that in another post.

 

[no-one in particular]

Fishing was fun before it stopped being a pastime and started to become yet another money making business. A business where catching fish and more fish is now all that matters. With its participants chasing bigger and more fish on the latest must have tackle.
A pastime where people forgot the reason they first started.
I was as guilty of that as the next person.

I took a friend of mine fishing on a club lake, he has not ben fishing before, I took him there because it was the only lake this club had open back in the just after lockdown days and it had some small carp in it. I thought he would have a chance of catching one. It was a small lake and because it was the only one open, it had about 30 members fishing. No one spoke, no one laughed, apart from one bloke came up and asked my friend to be quiet, not his fault he is one of those people that cannot stop talking however, I didn't blame the bloke. Apart from that everyone sat stock still with faces like slapped lemons probably watching everyone else to see if they could catch out someone breaking the rules. One bloke caught a fish and my friend and I were the only ones that went over to congratulate him and just see how and what he caught it on, I don't think he was impressed with such antics.
Try telling my friend it is a fun hobby.

 

[nottskev]

Saying something twice makes it true?

As for the difference between raking off and creaming off...... lol.

Shame about your mate, but you seem unable to distinguish between something that once happened to you, and the validity of generalising it to clubs at large.

 

[no-one in particular]

Saying something twice makes it true?

As for the difference between raking off and creaming off...... lol.

Shame about your mate, but you seem unable to distinguish between something that once happened to you, and the validity of generalising it to clubs at large.

I speak as I find, that's all I can do.

 

[nottskev]

I speak as I find, that's all I can do.

As in, I don't know much about clubs, but I know, without being in many or even fishing much, they are somewhere between the mafia and the masons? You could always ask yourself why so many belong to them, contribute to them and access their fishing through them and enjoy waters that benefit from members' collective effort before doubling down on your hatchet job.

 

[no-one in particular]

As in, I don't know much about clubs, but I know, without being in many or even fishing much, they are somewhere between the mafia and the masons? You could always ask yourself why so many belong to them, contribute to them and access their fishing through them and enjoy waters that benefit from members' collective effort before doubling down on your hatchet job.

Do so many belong to them though, I could explain this many ways but here is one example, in the last month I have travelled a fair distance either way from my home a few times, appointments etc.. I use public transport. I pass by several bits of water belonging to clubs, maybe about 5 different ones, I am not sure but more than one certainly. Being an angler I naturally take a good look to see if anyone is fishing. I can honestly say, I cannot remember one on those club waters with one angler on it, and one is a nice sized drain and another a lake, and the other way is a stretch of club river. and this is October and some nice weather. I haven't passed a commercial of any sort but I can bet there would have been more than a few fishing. I know you don't like commercials but, you can see my reasoning hopefully.
As I said I speak as I find only, you put your own meaning to it.

 

[steve2]

As in, I don't know much about clubs, but I know, without being in many or even fishing much, they are somewhere between the mafia and the masons? You could always ask yourself why so many belong to them, contribute to them and access their fishing through them and enjoy waters that benefit from members' collective effort before doubling down on your hatchet job.

One of my clubs it more like a secret society where the members don't report catches and are not that friendly. The committee members wont answer questions put to them on the forum until they have clearance from more senior members. There are some questions asked by members that have never been answered. If you ask question at a meeting the answer is normally we will get back to you on that.
The only reason I am still a members is because they have ownership of many of the waters near me that I use to fish.

 

[nottskev]

Do so many belong to them though, I could explain this many ways but here is one example, in the last month I have travelled a fair distance either way from my home a few times, appointments etc.. I use public transport. I pass by several bits of water belonging to clubs, maybe about 5 different ones, I am not sure but more than one certainly. Being an angler I naturally take a good look to see if anyone is fishing. I can honestly say, I cannot remember one on those club waters with one angler on it, and one is a nice sized drain and another a lake, and the other way is a stretch of club river. and this is October and some nice weather. I haven't passed a commercial of any sort but I can bet there would have been more than a few fishing. I know you don't like commercials but, you can see my reasoning hopefully.
As I said I speak as I find only, you put your own meaning to it.

I see what you write. Reasoning is another matter.

 

[mikench]

Having a water largely to oneself is a blessing I find. In addition the absence of the plethora of silly rules which afflict some commercials makes the fishing that bit more enjoyable. I have over 270 waters to go at and barely scratch the surface but the dozen or so I do visit offer varied fishing if a little hard . Whilst I like short grass and large pegs , they are not an essential prerequisite and a natural looking environment helps. I would really struggle to enjoy my fishing without my club memberships. I would add,again, one clubs membership fees are more than covered by the inclusion of 2 day ticket waters which are attractive and which I can visit as often as I like on one and 10 times a year on the other. Neither have silly rules and one is left alone to enjoy the fishing.