BAA fine for volunteer fatality.

[john step]

If I were part of the family of the deceased and with BAA having been found guilty I would be chasing a civil claim. I am sure some claims company would help for a nice fee.

Problem with this in a moral sense was that the chap was doing what he wanted as a leisure activity as part of his general interest in fishing.
I havent read that someone was outrageously careless in causing this. It could be that he was careless himself by standing under a branch that someone else was cutting.
Accidents happen. He was pursuing his interests. What happens to personal responsibility nowadays.

 

[sam vimes]

I can think of an upcoming event on my horizon that is rendered quite awkward by this ruling.

Sometime in the next few months, the EA are due to stock my local river. They have asked for volunteers to assist with this stocking. To my mind, this will now make those volunteers "employees" and the whole enterprise will be subject to H&S legislation. I somehow doubt that suitable safety equipment, training and briefings will be given to these volunteers. My bet is that they will not see any form of paperwork let alone read/sign authorised work documentation or risk assessments.

It's a can of worms for the EA and the EA employees that will effectively become supervisors of the volunteers that are now somehow employees too.

 

[ian g]

Problem with this in a moral sense was that the chap was doing what he wanted as a leisure activity as part of his general interest in fishing.
I havent read that someone was outrageously careless in causing this. It could be that he was careless himself by standing under a branch that someone else was cutting.
Accidents happen. He was pursuing his interests. What happens to personal responsibility nowadays.

Agree completely John , individuals have a responsibility for their own safety and the safety of others . The need is to put measures in place to carry out work in a safe way to avoid accidents . Unfortunately accidents can occur at any time as we all know.

 

[John Aston]

True , we all owe a duty of care to others. So if X negligently injures Y by failing in that duty X can recover damages. It's a well established principle , and has been for a very long time . And , since the late 70s, waivers and releases ( 'I am here at my own risk') have no legal effect when it comes to injury caused by negligence .

One of my clubs has a full time employee , and we have really had to raise our game in challenging some long established custom and practice , especially about lone working , using chainsaws, winches and the like. To be honest, it has proven a really valuable exercise and we have removed some risks entirely and manged others more effectively .

My late father was a GP and a mantra he used when facing difficult medical decisions has served me very well both in my own career and in looking at risk in fishing club scenarios - he asked himself ' What am I going to tell the Coroner?' .

 

[sam vimes]

There's no doubt in my mind that huge numbers of organisations, not just angling ones, need to up their game with regards to safety. There's no excuse for recklessness or carelessness causing harm to anyone. However, I'm yet to be convinced that angling clubs (and a plethora of similar (non-angling) organisations) are, or should be, subject to the Health & Safety At Work Act. That's not to suggest that they shouldn't be accountable for their actions/inactions.

 

[steve2]

Problem with this in a moral sense was that the chap was doing what he wanted as a leisure activity as part of his general interest in fishing.
I havent read that someone was outrageously careless in causing this. It could be that he was careless himself by standing under a branch that someone else was cutting.
Accidents happen. He was pursuing his interests. What happens to personal responsibility nowadays.

These days there no such thing as a accident there will always be someone to blame. You only have to watch TV and see the amount of claims company adverts.
I was told when I was going put anti climb protection on my fences I would have to put up notices in case some hurt their selves while trying to break in. Without these notices I would leave myself open for a claim if the thief hurt theirselves.

 

[markcw]

True , we all owe a duty of care to others. So if X negligently injures Y by failing in that duty X can recover damages. It's a well established principle , and has been for a very long time . And , since the late 70s, waivers and releases ( 'I am here at my own risk') have no legal effect when it comes to injury caused by negligence .

One of my clubs has a full time employee , and we have really had to raise our game in challenging some long established custom and practice , especially about lone working , using chainsaws, winches and the like. To be honest, it has proven a really valuable exercise and we have removed some risks entirely and manged others more effectively .

My late father was a GP and a mantra he used when facing difficult medical decisions has served me very well both in my own career and in looking at risk in fishing club scenarios - he asked himself ' What am I going to tell the Coroner?' .

When I was a club bailiff, we had a WhatsApp group for lone working.
At each water we would message we had arrived and then after the checks ,we would message we are leaving and how many angles were on that water, and going on to the next water, someone in the group would acknowledge the messages.
This was repeated at each water until all were checked on your particular patch.
Work parties where chainsaws or bobcat digger was involved were carried out by members who were licenced to use them.

 

[terry m]

This was classed as voluntary work, the fact that it was voluntary does not change the duty of care owed by the organiser/manager of that work. In the eyes of the law they are the responsible party.

There will be no successful appeal, this is a criminal conviction, appeals have a very small success rate, and an unsuccessful appeal will drive legal fees up. Also worth noting that H&S criminal fines are levied on the ability to pay. BAA funds may be massively dented, or borderline compromised, but I guarantee that they will have the funds.

The point about voluntary organisations upping their game is exactly correct.

There will be people who believe that this incident is further evidence of crazy H&S rules. They should probably discuss their views with relatives of the deceased individual.

 

[no-one in particular]

I think in this case they were negligent as outlined in the report and I said that earlier although H&S can be mad.
So Terry, if the BAA can afford the £85.000 why did they rely on volunteers who were unsuited to the work and not hire professionals. Its obvious why, why pay for something when some sucker old age pensioners will do it for nothing. And I wonder how many big clubs with the same attitude the same applies. Some poor blokes dead now so; ---- em. ----s

 

[nottskev]

So Terry, if the BAA can afford the £85.000 why did they rely on volunteers who were unsuited to the work and not hire professionals. Its obvious why, why pay for something when some sucker old age pensioners will do it for nothing.

Nothing personal Mark - in case you think I disagree with you on principle lol - but I think that's a travesty of the cooperative member involvement which is a good and healthy feature of angling clubs. Many maintenance jobs are straightforward, low-risk to no-risk for anyone with an ounce of common sense and fall into the 'many hands make light work' category, and joint working on waters is an expression of ownership and self-reliance. I've taken part in many such work parties, and the voluntary ethos of some of my local clubs is at the heart of their success in running good waters and keeping their members, and their good standing in local communities. The key point is to identify risk and plan to avert it, and forestry-type activities need special arrangements and skilled operators. That this was, apparently, neglected in this case is no good reason to prevent volunteers in general continuing to contribute work that's no more intrinsically dangerous than tidying up the average garden. On a weekly basis I get speculative men in vans door-knocking and leaflet-dropping, offering to cut my hedges, cut the grass, prune my trees etc. The prices they ask are often laughable, and I don't see why either I or fishing clubs should be compelled to employ them.

 

[John Aston]

These days there no such thing as a accident there will always be someone to blame. You only have to watch TV and see the amount of claims company adverts.
I was told when I was going put anti climb protection on my fences I would have to put up notices in case some hurt their selves while trying to break in. Without these notices I would leave myself open for a claim if the thief hurt theirselves.

I sympathise but the principle really is nothing new . What has changed is a claims culture stimulating the growth of firms offering to act or perhaps vice versa. But , so far as fishing clubs are concerned, there has already been an improvement from some of the ludicrously cavalier approaches some took to basic safety.

There is indeed still such a thing as an accident , and it simply isn't the case that somebody must automatically be liable - but what has changed is people's reluctance to shrug their shoulders and say 'that's life' to a serious injury. Attitudes change - one my wife's forebears suffered appalling injuries down the pit and neither received - nor sought - any compensation because he felt he alone was at fault , because he wasn't concentrating hard enough . The idea of an employer having to maintain a safe system of work back then , taking account of the fact that employees make foreseeable mistakes, was entirely alien . Even since the 70s, workplace fatalities have dropped by 90% . If that is Health and safety gone mad I am all for it !

 

[ian g]

I agree Grayson , accidents will always happen but lessons should always be learnt . It's in no ones interest for cavalier attitudes to H&S to be around today .

 

[terry m]

I think in this case they were negligent as outlined in the report and I said that earlier although H&S can be mad.
So Terry, if the BAA can afford the £85.000 why did they rely on volunteers who were unsuited to the work and not hire professionals. Its obvious why, why pay for something when some sucker old age pensioners will do it for nothing. And I wonder how many big clubs with the same attitude the same applies. Some poor blokes dead now so; ---- em. ----s

Mark, you capture the BAA attitude perfectly in my opinion.

And, perhaps you raise a wider issue. The attitude of getting things done on the cheap, and to hell with the consequences, or even not being aware of the consequences, may just be a by product of amateur leadership in fishing clubs. That is not necessarily a criticism, it is reality. As stated earlier this incident will be A wake up call to other angling clubs.

 

[no-one in particular]

Mark, you capture the BAA attitude perfectly in my opinion.

And, perhaps you raise a wider issue. The attitude of getting things done on the cheap, and to hell with the consequences, or even not being aware of the consequences, may just be a by product of amateur leadership in fishing clubs. That is not necessarily a criticism, it is reality. As stated earlier this incident will be A wake up call to other angling clubs.

I don't think it is amateurship, its some blokes divvying up a load of money between them and hanging on to much of it as they can and sod anything else. They got their comeuppance and less than they deserve. I hope at some point the blokes relatives get something and if the club goes to the wall, tough. To be honest, I have never liked fishing clubs, I managed without joining one for years, I like them even less now. I only joined one in the last couple of years, I wouldn't miss that one if it folded one iota, I managed for years without one, I could easily do so again; probably better.
Do you know what I hope really didn't happen, this bloke felt pressured into joining this work party because he didn't want others to think he was some sort of freeloader and did not put into the club what they did. You hear that talk around clubs, nasty old farts some of them, you hear that old cobblers all the time but, wouldn't it be even more of a shame if that is the case. This club I joined, I don't know one other person in it, its not a club, just a business arrangement and not a great one at that, I owe them nothing; certainly not any unpaid work. If the business arrangement suits me, I will keep it up but that's all it is to me.
You know why it makes me angry, I have this image of the BAA blokes sitting in a nice pub with roast dinner and some brandies to wash it down with the money they should have used laughing at those poor sods outside doing work they should have paid for and calling them mugs. I know, just my imagination but its an image I cannot get rid off when I think of this blokes death.
Did these BAA blokes even offer these old boys a drink for their efforts out of their £85.000, bet your life not.
Sorry, I am having a bit of rant, I will leave it at that, nothing more to say really.

 

[John Aston]

I think you are reacting to something you imagined might happen in a world where every club was run cynically and poorly according to a stereotype you have made up . I have been involved in running clubs for years , as secretary, treasurer ,director , chair and so on. I don't do it as some sort of ego trip, nor to feel important , nor even to rip off our naive membership for my own benefit. I do it, like most people, simply because I have some skills which can be useful in helping a club run smoothly. That means looking after health and safety, sorting fish stockings (and getting consents ) , negotiating leases and rents , resolving disputes, managing accounts and insurance , offering training days to new members , sorting stiles and gates , sorting a website , doing risk assessments and a host of other stuff which is often tedious , time consuming, thankless and frustrating.

I'd rather watch the TV with a bottle of wine than endure some of the stuff involved , let alone listen to ill informed sniping , but it needs doing if a club is to continue offering fishing to its members . Worst of all, some of us do this for a membership which can take the work for granted , rarely even turns up to an AGM or contributes anything positive . Want to know how to get 50 people to inspect their shoes simultaneously? As chair of an AGM , ask for a volunteer to help the committee.

You might profess not to like clubs , and many aren't run perfectly, but anglers would have a hell of lot less fishing without them ...

 

[no-one in particular]

I think you are reacting to something you imagined might happen in a world where every club was run cynically and poorly according to a stereotype you have made up . I have been involved in running clubs for years , as secretary, treasurer ,director , chair and so on. I don't do it as some sort of ego trip, nor to feel important , nor even to rip off our naive membership for my own benefit. I do it, like most people, simply because I have some skills which can be useful in helping a club run smoothly. That means looking after health and safety, sorting fish stockings (and getting consents ) , negotiating leases and rents , resolving disputes, managing accounts and insurance , offering training days to new members , sorting stiles and gates , sorting a website , doing risk assessments and a host of other stuff which is often tedious , time consuming, thankless and frustrating.

I'd rather watch the TV with a bottle of wine than endure some of the stuff involved , let alone listen to ill informed sniping , but it needs doing if a club is to continue offering fishing to its members . Worst of all, some of us do this for a membership which can take the work for granted , rarely even turns up to an AGM or contributes anything positive . Want to know how to get 50 people to inspect their shoes simultaneously? As chair of an AGM , ask for a volunteer to help the committee.

You might profess not to like clubs , and many aren't run perfectly, but anglers would have a hell of lot less fishing without them ...

That all sounds very nice until some bloke gets killed, then it doesn't sound so nice does it.

 

[steve2]

I think you are reacting to something you imagined might happen in a world where every club was run cynically and poorly according to a stereotype you have made up . I have been involved in running clubs for years , as secretary, treasurer ,director , chair and so on. I don't do it as some sort of ego trip, nor to feel important , nor even to rip off our naive membership for my own benefit. I do it, like most people, simply because I have some skills which can be useful in helping a club run smoothly. That means looking after health and safety, sorting fish stockings (and getting consents ) , negotiating leases and rents , resolving disputes, managing accounts and insurance , offering training days to new members , sorting stiles and gates , sorting a website , doing risk assessments and a host of other stuff which is often tedious , time consuming, thankless and frustrating.

I'd rather watch the TV with a bottle of wine than endure some of the stuff involved , let alone listen to ill informed sniping , but it needs doing if a club is to continue offering fishing to its members . Worst of all, some of us do this for a membership which can take the work for granted , rarely even turns up to an AGM or contributes anything positive . Want to know how to get 50 people to inspect their shoes simultaneously? As chair of an AGM , ask for a volunteer to help the committee.

You might profess not to like clubs , and many aren't run perfectly, but anglers would have a hell of lot less fishing without them ...

Like you I have also held all these positions in clubs and it is a thankless task. One which i would never do again, I now prefer to leave it all to others. Unfortunately in the majority of clubs the others are few and far between.

I don't know how many members the BAA has but looking at their membership fee it is ridiculously cheap. £85000 is approx 2000 membership fees.

 

[no-one in particular]

You might profess not to like clubs , and many aren't run perfectly, but anglers would have a hell of lot less fishing without them ...

I don't agree with that, its something people who run clubs always try and con me with as they do all of us. I had plenty of fishing all my life without joining a club, I had some arrangements with farmers, they just wanted to know who was on their land so I left a few beers in the porch so they knew it was me. I had free stretches, some little clubs that charged me a day ticket very cheap. All taken away by big clubs. I used to travel the country a lot in my work, I had time to fish now and then but never could, every water I stopped at had a big sign, no fishing because it belong to some club. All clubs have ever meant to me is a "I cannot fish sign" and I am supposed to be grateful for that.
I worked out it was something like 30 clubs owned most of the water within a 20 mile radius of me, impossible to fish all of them, most of them. If there were no clubs I would have a great time and find plenty of fishing; I am absolutely certain of that and more fishing and a lot more interesting to boot. They are just their to make some money, someone is getting a rake off from it, you will never find out who or how much, you have more chance of impetrating MI5; they don't want you to know, probably afraid you might realize how much is not going into the fishing they provide. And as to how hard done by they are, the martyrs who give all their time and energy to provide me with a poxy bit of water and how ungrateful I am or how grateful I should be, nah sorry, doesn't do anything for me.
The club system evolved, that was the way it was, I accept that and I doubt it could be changed now, but that they are the best thing and I should be thankful for them nah, we should have come up with something better with hindsight. All clubs have done is ruin our fishing landscape, made it difficult for all of us so someone can get a rake off from it. We should have come up with something a lot better.
So when I am told how grateful I should be and how lucky I am, it is not going to happen.

 

[John Aston]

Crikey , we've been rumbled . OK , you've got us bang to rights , all this club stuff is a conspiracy , and well done you for spotting it .

 

[GT56]

This terrible accident for everyone who’s involved is I’m sure their worst nightmare, I’m also sure it’s far from over and for some it never will be.

There now has to be a real dilemma for small clubs in terms of how they comply and meet the necessary standards for managing H&S, ensuring the safety of their work party volunteers.

I’m now thinking in our club we'll need to ensure we carry out hand tool type work only going forward.

Also was the £66,000 fine + costs handing out knowing the BAA had the resources to pay the fine and has this now set a president regarding the level of fine that would be handed out obviously on some form of severity scale depending on the injury to any other volunteer type accidents?

The small club I'm involved with hasn't got and never will have that kind of money and whilst I'm not suggesting being unable pay a fine if found guilty of a breach of H&S regulations should be the reason you revaluate your approach to H&S, it's mind focusing nevertheless.