Beavers

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Phil Hackett

Guest
The European Beaver (Castor fiber) is a herbivore so poses no threat to fish what so ever. It is also not the alleged clear feller of the US (a myth anyway), it is a smaller more subtle and selective creature about what it fells.
It did not disappear from the UK through “evolution,” it was like many once native creatures, hunted out of existence.

Any re-introductions would take place in remote, wild water, high forestation areas, such as Scotland, Wales, Cumbria, Northumberland, etc. The above areas mainly being available in what we know as the ‘trout zone’ of the river areas in question.

In parts of Europe where beavers are still present they play a major role in enhancing the river ecology. The dams they build provide refuge for fry in times of flood. Provide quiet pools where fish can wax fat on the increased food supply. The trees they fell on the banks open up the canopy allowing light and warmth in to the river, which in turn boosts the aquatic food chain. It perhaps may surprise you to know that the issue of closed canopy cover on river has in recent years been the subject intense scientific research. The result of which is that it is detrimental to the river ecology. In that it has a knock on effect throughout the whole system.

Therefore I suggest that we should not be to quick to judge something that might just improve the quality of some of the nations rivers.
 
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Paul Williams

Guest
Phil,
With all due respect i know of very little....no i'll rephase that, i know of no UK rivers were the canopy is so dense.....i agree they may enhance the river with refuges for fry though BUT will they then be blamed for destroying the young forests that have to be planted to supply mans need and how will they survive along side that other furry thing introduced by people who think they know best.......the mink???
 
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Gary Knowles

Guest
Andrew,

As a former british record tench holder and current holder of the biggest brace of pike caught in the UK, I doubt Eric feels insecure about his fishing mate !

I would suspect the only insecurity he feels about his fishing is as to whether the increased introduction of carp into waters throughout the country will leave anything else for us to fish for in twenty years time.

It may bore you to discuss, or even hear talk of such matters but I can assure you for those people who look furhter than carp for sport (and I'm not saying here that you don't) and for the sake of our indigenous species, it is a subject that we find far from boring.
 
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Rodney Wrestt

Guest
Gary,
Don't you think he feels a little insecure when on a small boat, out in the middle of a some deserted venue with you netting fish after fish for him muttering louder and louder after each one? ;O}~
 
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Gary Knowles

Guest
If he could have seen me brandishing the oar behind him he definitely would have Rodney........
 
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andrew jackson

Guest
Gary I aplaude your loyalty to another member, but when was this thread about carp? What bores me, is people getting a dig in, totaly out of context with the topic. If you and your buddy Eric feel so strong about the subject, then I suggest you start a thread on that topic, not broadside others totaly out of context.
 
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Phil Hackett

Guest
Paul with due respect back, many of the rivers, becks and streams in the areas I mentioned do have a closed canopy in the trout zones (upper reaches). Many of the rivers in Dumfries and Galloway, most of the tributaries running out of the New Forest, Cumbrian Eden, Welsh Tywi, Taf, Yorkshire R. Hebdon to list just a few.

All beavers, be they US or European do not venture out of the river corridor to fell timber. In the case of EU beaver they utilise mainly saplings within the riparian zone of no more than 2-3 inches in diameter. Being herbivores they also eat riparian herbage as well. Therefore the threat to newly planted forest is virtually non-existent. So no they would not be blamed for destroying new plantings. Also the sort of terrain where they would be found would be remote very steep sided valleys where the timber cannot be easily harvested anyway. As an aside, the biggest threat to newly planted forests comes from deer and rabbits mainly in this country.

As to dealing with the mink, I would think they would be well capable of looking after themselves, as they are several inches bigger and somewhat heavier, with formidable jaws and teeth.
 
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Stuart Bullard

Guest
Andrew, the references to carp are not out of context at all to this topic. I think they are very pertinent.

While the specific question was with respect to the re-introduction of beavers, you have to look at other experiences (and this is the case in all walks of life) to help make judgments as to the impact changes may have.

It is an absolute fact that carp being introduced into waters where they are not native has had a dramatic impact on the ecosystem within the waters. There are many other examples of where this has happened, be it introducing new species (flora and fauna) or changing the nature of local habitats (i.e. river flood schemes, straightening).

I do not believe Eric (or Gary) was having a dig at all, just raising a point that does have some relevance with respect to mans (sorry, peoples) effect on our planet.

As for Beavers being re-introduced, personally I cannot think of a really good reason why not, but then again that is just a personal view. Trying to redress some of our impact should be supported whole heartedly.
 
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Carp Angler

Guest
The similarities do not exist.
Carp introduced.....
Beavers re-introduced.....

The two instances are incomparable.
 
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Gary Knowles

Guest
but they both smell of fish Rik...


Andrew, I wasn't being loyal to a "buddy" - just telling it as it is. Thats what an open forum is all about.

If that bores you, sorry....
 
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Stuart Bullard

Guest
Rik, it is not a matter of comparing, the point was that introducing something that is not native has an impact. The beaver is no longer native, and as pointed out the natural habitat is no longer there (or only in very small areas), therefore they may well adapt and spread into areas that are definitely not natural (I can just see them now in their little MDF homes!!). I still think it is a good idea though.

As such I just thought it was relevant bringing up other experiences, and I think the reaction by Andrew was a little OTT.

Anyway, life is 99% opinion and 1% fact....

By the way, I popped down to Papercourt the other day for a look around and will probably have an early morning session Sunday. It looks.........big! Have you ever fished it?
 
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Craig Smith

Guest
MDF hut's on stilts! or maybe on foam mats to stop them flooding in the winter!! He He.
 
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Eric Edwards

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Actually I wasn't having a go at carp (though most sane people would agree that they should all be incinerated). I was pointing out that your comments on beavers were made from an extremely biased standpoint. There are many environments not suitable for carp yet the rat fish march on. If we allow this to take place then why not the beaver and yes, why not the wolf?

As for insecurity, look at this statement;
"Otters have caused massive problems on still waters near to introduction sites"

Well I'm heavily into pike fishing - and otters are known to eat the odd pike, yet I would welcome otters in the waters I fish. I could stand to lose the odd pike, even the odd big one, in return for the pleasure it gives me to see otters back in our waters.

These "massive problems", they wouldn't involve the consumption of large numbers of a species of fish that are too slow and too slow witted to get out of the way would they?

Sounds like these fish are in an environment not suited to their existence!

Eric
 
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Trent Jim

Guest
"These "massive problems", they wouldn't involve the consumption of large numbers of a species of fish that are too slow and too slow witted to get out of the way would they?"

the biggest impact will be on the rivers...
The tendency will be for the larger,older fish to be taken since that are less able to evade beavers - the old story about them eating eels is tosh - they eat whatever they get their claws into. I like the prospect of seeing beavers, but be aware that you will not find specimen fish around a beavers stomping ground - the days of the big river fish we were just getting used to are numbered.
(BTW they have already accounted for large nos of carp in the 20-30Lb bracket - the threat to big fish is serious!!)
Jim
 
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Trent Jim

Guest
OOPs - must be all the sunshine...
all the above of course refers to otters, beavers, good on em I say!!
Jim
 
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Paul Williams

Guest
Phil,
I think we will have to agree to disagree about what we see as a "canopy", what you discribe as one i see as a wonderful shaded section of river, i see your point though and take on your views about the beavers habitat.....unlike Eric and the others though i do not agree that the reintroduction of the otter is a good thing at the present time, the habitat has changed since they were last with us......get the infrastructure of our waterways into shape from the bottom up and then talk about reintroducing species like otters.....but wolfs?, well that really is a joke, urban foxes do enough damage because they are forced into towns, can you imagine the carnage a pack animal like the wolf would bring??? it's 2002 not 1202.
 
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andrew jackson

Guest
Garry, Eric, niether of you are talking about beavers are you? You are just hijacking this thread as a vehicle to carry out your vendeta against carp. Garry you are not telling it as it is, you are expressing your oppinon, (big difference)! My veiws are not in any way biased or bitter (unlike your views), and how is the stocking policy of clubs and water owners relevant to my veiws on Beavers? In a nut shell you are just talking a load of tosh, to give yourself an opertunity to have a dig at a fish you dont like. I can see that, and I am sure that most of the other members can.
 
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andrew jackson

Guest
Just out of interest Paul williams has said exactly the same as I did, although pauls post is more eloquent. Seeing as his picture shows him holding a Bream, does that equate that his views on Beavers are also biased?
 
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Paul Williams

Guest
Andrew,
I just think of us all as pals and pals are capable of disagreeing without falling out.....Gary and Eric are brash Northerners who can only catch carp when targeting species like tench and bream so we have to make allowances for their bitternes towards the species.... ;)
 
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