Canoe reply from HDYGO thread

Peter Jacobs

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I still think that anglers have a strong case when negotiating with landowners. We are far more "Regular" customers than the paddlers or wild swimmers being on the river many more weeks per year than the ephemeral paddlers and swimmers.

We provide a more regular income to the riparian owners who, if given the choice between one or the other, would probably agree to restrict the paddlers etc., in favour of the anglers.

It would help greatly if the Angling Trust used some of their influence as well to sipport the angler's case.
 

steve2

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much of its inaccessible now Steve, I’m not young and fit enough to walk long distances with even with a light roving kit, but even if I was the options are very limited.
Thought I would check out Grove Ferry on the internet it seems it is now part of a country park. With camping, boat hire and river trips so I am not surprised it's busy in the summer. Certainly changed a bit since I last fished there, but even back then you had to get there early.
 

s63

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Initially it was just anger and frustration because I wasn’t able to enjoy a day fishing, the concern of another tragedy is now foremost in my mind. The link I posted has now been sent with a covering letter to the local BBC and ITV news plus a copy to our local mp too.
 

silvers

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I still think that anglers have a strong case when negotiating with landowners. We are far more "Regular" customers than the paddlers or wild swimmers being on the river many more weeks per year than the ephemeral paddlers and swimmers.

We provide a more regular income to the riparian owners who, if given the choice between one or the other, would probably agree to restrict the paddlers etc., in favour of the anglers.

It would help greatly if the Angling Trust used some of their influence as well to sipport the angler's case.
Whilst doing some research prompted by this topic and meeting 3 paddle boarders on the Ouse above Kempston (ie. Non navigable) google found a link the the Angling Trust’s legal opinion (from I think 2017) that the canoe lobby doesn’t have a leg to stand on ... so I don’t think they are silent. Sadly the link was broken (404 error) as the AT have just updated their website and it’s not yet completed (don’t tell me you haven’t noticed?).

anyway - after said (Brief) research I noted:
1. From a legal perspective any ”craft” from a board to a powerboat is covered by the navigation law (albeit vague and disputed). Most of the available info is in relation the canoes. I didn’t find anything on swimming as a form of navigation, but there was a lot about ‘rights of way’ which would I suppose include.
2. an interesting if verbose paper on the historical context and some international comparison
3. that British Canoeing and other bodies websites simultaneously state
a) there’s a pretty limited set of navigable waterways that you’re allowed to use (“Of the 42,700 miles of inland waterways in England, only 1,400 miles can be paddled”)
b) they believe the law is wrong and there should be “access for all” ... with no recommendation to avoid non-navigable.

My experience
  • in many years of fishing I’ve only very rarely had a swim ruined by paddlers etc, and most of that was due to inconsiderate behaviour rather than the presence of craft passing through
  • i suspect the effect is worse on clear and shallow rivers, although I’ve not observed that myself.
  • the nuisance is exacerbated by volume and frequency of disturbance (as per the OP). The Grand Union Canal became intolerable in the summer due to the number of leisure barges passing through. Equally a canoe regatta or constant capsize drills in your peg will ruin the day. My own worst experiences are on venues with rowing clubs on training days where you get all the boats and also the coaches launch (Shrewsbury and Hereford)
  • As the OP says, the easier option is to abandon the venue if it becomes intolerable ... at least during summer holidays!
I wonder whether angling’s best course of action is to actually support the calls for access to all inland waterways? Thereby diluting the paddlers per linear mile so they aflict more waters, but less intensely?

in the end, the migration of match and pleasure anglers to commercial pools in the 90s has created a vacuum.

I suspect many of The people involved have no knowledge or interest in the legal situation ... I canoed on the upper Ouse as a teenager blissfully unaware of the rights of navigation.
 

peter crabtree

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A couple of years ago I was fishing the Colne when the local sea scouts turned up in those little kyaks and started playing a ball game.
The commotion, shouting and splashing around happening just a few yards upstream of me. It was annoying but I was still catching quality roach, one a chuck. After about 30 minutes they departed and peace resumed. Lovely, except I couldn’t get a bite from that moment on....
 

Peter Jacobs

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I suspect many of The people involved have no knowledge or interest in the legal situation ... I canoed on the upper Ouse as a teenager blissfully unaware of the rights of navigation.
There are several retired lawyers who are active on the site, as well as Evan (Windy) who as a retired barrister wrote an encompassing opinion on the topic of PRN a couple of year ago and that heavily supports the angling case.

Unfortunately the Angling Trust seemingly sided with the "joint use by agreement" option rather than take the case to the Courts for adjudication, and that was only (as I understand it) decided on the matter of . . . . . . cost

You should still be able to find it in the Search function.
 

whitty

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On the Wye during summer months,during office hours there is a constant procession of kayaks,so i'm told,now if there is little respite angling becomes impractical,when barbel fishing on the D.Stour I find it best to cast every 40 minutes if you can leave it there that long,that is the amount of feed I put in(pva bag with a few pellets and four broken boilies),so if boarders or kayakers come through say every ten minutes it naffs it all up...
 

silvers

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There are several retired lawyers who are active on the site, as well as Evan (Windy) who as a retired barrister wrote an encompassing opinion on the topic of PRN a couple of year ago and that heavily supports the angling case.

Unfortunately the Angling Trust seemingly sided with the "joint use by agreement" option rather than take the case to the Courts for adjudication, and that was only (as I understand it) decided on the matter of . . . . . . cost

You should still be able to find it in the Search function.
Hi peter, I was referring to the recreational/occasional paddlers, rather than hard core activists or anglers who post on this site.

as I said ... I couldn’t read the AT position as the website is being migrated currently. The google cached headline seemed to be rather stronger. From my non-legal reading I also concluded that anglers may well be more in the right based upon feudal And legal history in this country. I would question whether we are morally more entitled though. ... depending on your POV re property ownership and commons.
Frankly, I’d love to see a total ban on craft (and swimming) on non-navigable waters, but I can’t see any government going this far (weirdo anglers vs. Healthy people exercising?), so is the best tactic to
a) take legal test cases which may provoke governement to legislate - perhaps not in our favour
b) stall and prevaricate (the AT approach from what you write)
c) abandon waters for angling where the traffic is to high.
all of those strategies carry risk!

and Frankly ... many owners of craft won’t know or give two hoots about this anyway ... they’ll just go and launch at the nearest convenient spot. i Read a couple of threads on paddler forums where they basically said that getting access agreements went nowhere, so just keep you head down and get out there where you want to.

hence my (Slightly tongue in cheek) suggestion of a possible solution.
 

silvers

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On the Wye during summer months,during office hours there is a constant procession of kayaks,so i'm told,now if there is little respite angling becomes impractical,when barbel fishing on the D.Stour I find it best to cast every 40 minutes if you can leave it there that long,that is the amount of feed I put in(pva bag with a few pellets and four broken boilies),so if boarders or kayakers come through say every ten minutes it naffs it all up...
Agreed Alan, it’s the frequency of disturbance that is at the crux. One party of twenty paddlers who pass through in 5 minutes ... versus twenty paddlers, one every ten minutes!
 

s63

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On the Wye during summer months,during office hours there is a constant procession of kayaks,so i'm told,now if there is little respite angling becomes impractical,when barbel fishing on the D.Stour I find it best to cast every 40 minutes if you can leave it there that long,that is the amount of feed I put in(pva bag with a few pellets and four broken boilies),so if boarders or kayakers come through say every ten minutes it naffs it all up...
do you not think constant traffic would spook off barbel and chub that would take cover til darkness?
 

markg

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Hi peter, I was referring to the recreational/occasional paddlers, rather than hard core activists or anglers who post on this site.

as I said ... I couldn’t read the AT position as the website is being migrated currently. The google cached headline seemed to be rather stronger. From my non-legal reading I also concluded that anglers may well be more in the right based upon feudal And legal history in this country. I would question whether we are morally more entitled though. ... depending on your POV re property ownership and commons.
Frankly, I’d love to see a total ban on craft (and swimming) on non-navigable waters, but I can’t see any government going this far (weirdo anglers vs. Healthy people exercising?), so is the best tactic to
a) take legal test cases which may provoke governement to legislate - perhaps not in our favour
b) stall and prevaricate (the AT approach from what you write)
c) abandon waters for angling where the traffic is to high.
all of those strategies carry risk!

and Frankly ... many owners of craft won’t know or give two hoots about this anyway ... they’ll just go and launch at the nearest convenient spot. i Read a couple of threads on paddler forums where they basically said that getting access agreements went nowhere, so just keep you head down and get out there where you want to.

hence my (Slightly tongue in cheek) suggestion of a possible solution.
That's why chasing the laws on old navigational rulings that were set when angling, canoing/flatboarding, wild water swimming were nowhere near where they are at now is a waste of time and money. They have not got anyone anywhere so far. It needs a new set of rulings apart from any old navigational laws. The Government should be pushed to get the legislative body to take a modern look at this and devise separate new laws to deal with the problem in my opinion.
 

browndog

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Just a suggestion but if the campsite is renting the canoes and boats give them a ring and ask wether their insurance covers the use while trespassing.
 

steve2

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If you go onto the British Canoe Union website I think you will find articles on access to water for canoes, kayaks, paddle boarders and wild swimmer. It would seem that at no time is angling rights mentioned.
 

markcw

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String some Pro Gold across the surface that will stop them .
There were a few canoeists on the Thames at Sandford a few weeks ago, looked like a couple of families.
The canoes they were in were those inflatable ones, they didnt look to steady either ,and not one of them was wearing a buoyancy aid.
 

markg

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There were a few canoeists on the Thames at Sandford a few weeks ago, looked like a couple of families.
The canoes they were in were those inflatable ones, they didnt look to steady either ,and not one of them was wearing a buoyancy aid.
Wasn't Krang in one by any chance, could still be alive.
 

whitty

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do you not think constant traffic would spook off barbel and chub that would take cover til darkness?
i am not officially allowed to fish after dark,nor do I want to,in recent years boarders and kayaks have been a pain,but usually you get some peace,this years increase in numbers has meant fishing is impractical,unless it's pouring with rain,if I find it so when I go down a week Friday I will take the family down to Poole and wrasse fish a few evenings..
 

mikench

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Trespass remains trespass albeit a civil offence for the most part. Any angling club leasing a water for angling has a right to be able to do it without interference ie a landlord must not derogate from his grant. Canoeists and paddle boarders should be made to feel unwelcome which I’m sure a few lures, heavy feeders and thick lines would assist with. I doubt any duty of care would be held to be owed to paddle boarders etc on a stretch of river used for fishing particularly if appropriate notices as posted earlier made the position Clear.
 
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