Fish in Spawn

[GrahamM]

It's pretty obvious that the new record bream was heavy with spawn, hence it being caught close in, in shallow water. But what are your views on catching fish in spawn?

My own view is that it's okay providing the fish are not actually in the act of spawning.

I've caught many fish, particularly tench and pike, that have been heavy with spawn, and fished for them knowing they were heavy with spawn, so this post isn't an attempt to knock anybody. I'd just like to hear any views about this.

 

[Paul Hawkins]

I remember my first 'close season' foray onto my favourite pit in 1995. Previous to that it had opened at the traditional time.
I improved both Bream and Tench PB's before the start of the traditional season.
Took me years to get over the slight awkward feeling about them!
Both had spawn in them which added to the unease (guilt would be too strong)
Fact is my previous Tench bests were gravid Tench caught at the end of June so it's difficult to be too precious about it.
I think unhooking mats and fish welfare are so 'in' now that it's not really a problem catching spawn bound fish.
Come to think of it, the easiest time to determine the sex of carp used to be in those last few weeks of the traditional season. The girls were definately plumping up a bit.
I think it's up to the individual at the end of the day.

 

[Alan Roe]

Hmm I do seem to think that I gave my views on this thorny subject in the thread 'Should we end the close season on rivers'? currently on page 34 I see no reason to change those views unpopular though they may be.
There is plenty of other more appropriate fishing to be had at this time of year rather than deliberatly harrasing spawn laden fish in pursuit of a 'Personal Best'or even...... Dare I breathe it 'A Record'.
When it comes to personal glory ...the enlarding of the fattened ego or the common good I live in the vain hope that anglers would choose the latter
But I have a nasty suspicion that my hope is in vain.

 

[Philip Inzani]

Its a difficult one. The situation is complicated by so many things?.spawning timescales of different fish, fish spawning more than once a year and the fact that some fish can hold spawn for the whole season. If we ever tried to enforce it then we may as well give up fishing. We also tend to think of a fish holding spawn as a big bloated football but I dont think its always like that and I think that many more fish are holding spawn than we imagine but its just not as noticeable in some cases. I think attitudes have changed. I remember when Chris Yates caught that 43+ common from Redmire. The fish was full of spawn and as it was a windy day the weighing was difficult and they thought it may be a record but it just missed. I think they said something along the lines of "We where all glad is did not turn out to be a record as it would hardly be fair with a fish in that condition" Oh how times change!!!!!!

My view is that I like fishing at spawning time because location is at its easiest. I would like to say that I agree with Graham that if I see them actually spawning then I dont fish for them (I remember passing some massive shoals of Chub and Barbel spawning on the Kennet but I kept walking) However now I think about it, the fact is that all the fish dont spawn at the same hour, minute or second so the chances are if you fish early season then at least some of the fish are going to be spawning when you fish for them anyway. Then of course there is other anglers. On walking back past that Kennet swim later in the day I found two anglers in there having a field day?.I guess different people have different perspectives on it!

 

[Rob Brownfield]

For years people have been travelling to Scotland and Ireland at Pike spawning times. I have actually seen in print from several "Famous" Pike anglers that the close season should have been kept in England, yet they have written pages and pages about Fishing in scotland in April/May time. This winds me up a bit...as u can probably tell.

As for catching Tench that look like footballs, well..I find that a hard one to justify. When in the water, pressure helps "hold" the weight of the fish. Take that fish out of water and the external pressure is release. One of two things can happen. First, the fish can split! Now, I dont mean a gaping hole, but internally, the "sack" containing the spawn can rupture. In extreme cases this can lead to death. The second thing is the fish can start ejecting eggs all up the bank. Thats your future sport spread all over your mat!

As a child i remember catching several big spawn bound tench from Hooks Marsh. The first one shed eggs all over me...the second I kept in the water to unhook with no problems.

I think it is a bit unfair to add to the stress of a spawn bound fish when it is close to spwning, and i am sure animal welfare people would jump on us if we said we intentionally fish for heavily laden fish. All female fish carry some spawn for most of the year by the way.

 

[william kirkwood]

I personaly think that heavy spawn laden fish
should not count as record fish.
What do other people think?

 

[Philip Inzani]

Whats "heavy spawn laden". How do you measure it?

 

[william kirkwood]

looking like rugby balls

 

[Davy North]

Another problem in early season fishing is how warm the spring has been, in relation to catching spawn laden fish.

Also it could depend in what part of the country you live. While I support the March-June closed season, fish don't have calendars. Here in the North East where it's generally colder than some parts of the country a April-July closed season would be better. However regional closed seasons would be impossible set up, so as Philip says its down to the anglers common sense.

Personally I'm not happy about catching fish in spawn, which is why I havn't been coarse fishing for over two months now, mind you the temptation is great.

 

[John McLaren]

I am a firm believer in the close season but given it's demise on stillwaters the catching of more spawn laden fish than we used to catch is inevitable. I guess that the only answer is that anglers take still greater care with the fish they catch, as per Rob Brownfield's comments.

However, I, along with William Kirkwood do wonder about the validity of fish records based on weight where this is grossly exaggerated by spawn. A decision to not recognise obviously spawn heavy fish might be a step in the right direction.

Fishery owners and clubs could also help by closing specific waters when spawning appears imminent but I recognise that practical difficulties exist there - maybe the close season should be restored only LONGER!! I know that's not going to happen, but the Brown Trout season is only 6 or 7 months long so what is so different about coarse fish? The fact that more than one species is involved, with different spawning periods, might suggest that logically that is what should happen.

 

[william kirkwood]

Perhaps it would solve promlems by having a
record for female fish and one for male fish then it perhaps it wouldnt matter about the spawn.

 

[Allan Marshall]

I am a firm believer in the close season. I think that closed should apply to still, as well as running water. The national closed season in my opinion should apply to lakes as well as rivers. After all nature can repair a lot in three months. A softy I am, but photos in angling mags of spawn filled fish upset me.

 

[vince battams]

Graham, personally i would never blatently fish for a species knowing they we're full of spawn, but why did you knowing the fish you we're after we're heavy with spawn?
As for claiming a record for a fish laden with spawn i find this too unacceptable, if i caught a fish with spawn it would be returned immediately not treated to a lengthy spell out of water just to be weighed and photographed.
And i agree with allan Marshall [no your not a softie allan, your a purist], bring back the old style closed season, lets take the greed of commercial fishing out of fishing, its not natural, the countryside and the fish should be given time off, let's start a petition here and now at fishingmagic to bring back the old style fishing season it will be one less thing for the antis to moan at.

 

[Carp Angler]

What a complete load of sentamentalist rubbish.

No pike or perch fishing from November to June.
No roach fishing from December to June.
No carp or tench fishing until at least the end of July.

That would leave a season lasting from August until October.

The only petition that should be started would be the one that puts you back with the anti's, because thats whose hands you are playing into.

What is your definition of purist?
Someone who is still living in the 70's?

 

[Allan Marshall]

with regard to "Carp Angler's" last comment about the definition of a purist, does that mean that anyone who fishes 2001 style has no regard for either the fish or the environment?
I don't like not being able to fish for three months either, but in order to preserve the sport it is only sensible to give fish the opportunity to spawn in peace before the start of the new season.
It is not playing into the hands of the antis at all, it is called being a responsible human being who puts the wild life and it's environment before individual pleasure, profit or journalistic fame.
P.S for hiomework during the close season write out three times 'sentimentalist'

 

[Allan Marshall]

Yes I know "homework doesn't have an 'i' in it, it's late and I got too enthusiastic with the keyboard.

 

[Stewart Bloor]

That'll teach you for trying to be clever....hahahahaha

 

[GrahamM]

Vince, beginning with the last point you made, I have to say that I am dead set against bringing back the old closed season. For one thing it did more harm than good, both for the angler and the fish, and secondly I would never, EVER, do anything to appease the antis.

Quite frankly I don’t give a flying fig what the antis think. Anglers should do what they think is right, and that is the ONLY criteria they should go by.

Let me emphasise again, that the very last thing we should do, what we should NEVER do, is act according to what we think the antis will or will not moan about.

We are quite capable of arguing between ourselves about what we think is right and wrong without having to consider what our enemies think. Stuff what our enemies think! What the hell do they know about fishing?

As for fishing for fish with spawn inside them then I think that many times you don’t have a lot of choice unless you want to narrow your season down to a fraction of what it is now. Fish with spawn are healthy fish and it does not do them any harm when caught. They expend a lot more energy and damage themselves far more severely when actually spawning than we ever do by hooking and landing them. However, fishing for fish that are actually in the throes of spawning is a different matter. I don’t do that.

By all means start a petition in this forum for bringing back the old closed season, but don’t expect me to back it.

And as for Alan’s comment that: “It is not playing into the hands of the antis at all, it is called being a responsible human being who puts the wild life and it's environment before individual pleasure, profit or journalistic fame.”

Then the best way of being totally responsible, in the eyes of the antis, is not to go fishing at all. After all, most of us fish for pleasure. I certainly do, and there is no way I can justify sticking hooks in fish by claiming that the fish enjoy it.

How do you justify sticking hooks in fish and pulling them out of the water?

Because that is the one thing we can’t ban without banning angling, and whatever argument you use you can use the same argument to justify everything else we do in fishing.

Like Barrie Rickards has said many times, and I agree with the majority of what he has to say, – Get Real! To save me writing a more detailed explanation here, read what Barrie had to say:

<a href=http://www.fishingmagic.com/news/article.asp?SP=&v=&UAN=583>’The Rivers’ Close Season’</A>

And here:

<a href=http://www.fishingmagic.com/news/article.asp?SP=&v=&UAN=931>’Angling In The Real World’</A>

 

[Alan Roe]

Graham is right in at least one respect with his 'stuff the antis' comment they do not care and they do not understand about angling.
Furthermore the antis alone will not get angling banned.

They will need a little help along the way it will be public opinion, yes the mass of uninformed british public that will get angling banned once they have been suitably 'Informed'usually by a hate campaign in the media whipped up by a handful of 'caring' and usually trendy souls...
Do not think that this is impossible there are many in the media who dislike angling intensly and as the sorry saga over Wendy Turner and Channel 4 has shown, the right to reply may not exist for anglers and all the whinging in the world on angling sites will get you nowhere as only computer literate anglers read them...

My fishing partner Martin described on his radio show the deliberate targeting of spawn filled fish as being akin to 'Kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach'.
If you think that the above statement is sentimental just think what the rest of the media could do with it.

As I have argued before in this day and age Image is vastly more important than the truth. It is irrelevant what the 'Facts' are the truth is that the great british public will not listen to those who they feel have a vested interest and are presenting the 'Facts'.

Angling used to and to a lesser extent still does have something of a reasonably positive image.
You know the sort of thing 'Anglers care for the environment'.
How long do you think it would take an ochestrated campaign to present a wholly different image. Not very long if you ask me....

Angling did its public image no good at all when it abandoned the close season.
Anglers do themselves No good when they leave the banks of fisheries looking like council waste tips an all too common appearance.
Anglers do themselves no good at all when they have their media filled with trophy shots of men holding spawn filled fish that look to the uninformed like they are pregnant. Yes that last sentence is open to being accused of being sentimental but look at the image it presents and consider the damage that could do for the sport that we all profess to love if placed before the great British Public by experts in media manipulation.

When I finally shuffle off this mortal coil I want my son and his children to be able to enjoy the delights of angling.
I belive that to ensure this I have to make certain sacrifices and overcome my own selfishness so that angling continues to retain an acceptiblity in the eyes of the public, in this way I hope that angling will remain acceptable. In the same way I belive that support for those angling organisations that do fight for the enviroment like the ACA is also a must.

Or are we prepared to risk sacrificing the inheritance of our children and their children on the altar of our own greed.

 

[GrahamM]

I recognise your sincerity and passion for angling Alan, and don't disagree with all your comments. However, there are one or two of your comments I would like to take issue with.

There are many carp caught that look full of spawn but are not, it is just their natural shape. So we would still have to educate an ill-informed public. Spawning seasons vary so greatly there will always be pregnant fish caught, many by accident. So we will still have to educate an ill-informed public.

As for the comment that "the deliberate targeting of spawn filled fish as being akin to 'Kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach'," this is the kind of inflammatory description loved by the antis and will be grabbed and quoted with glee. After all, it comes from one of us, not one of them.

The description is far from accurate. How many pregnant women do you know who give birth by being banged into by the male and then rubbing themselves against weed and gravel, to the point where they're left with physical damage?

And I return to the point I insist on making over and over again, a point on which I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer from an angler:

If image is important, how do we justify sticking hooks in fish and hauling them from the water?

That is the ultimate question; that is the real question. It is the only question we need to answer when it comes to the crunch.

And it is the one act that we all do that we cannot hide behind a 'nice' image. Ban keepnets, ban livebaits, have a closed season that lasts for 11 months out of 12, and have the squeakiest, cleanest image under the sun.

But when it comes down to it you have to be able to explain why you get fun out of sticking hooks in fish and pulling them to the bank or landing net.

I reckon it's time we put image at the bottom of the agenda, stop trying to justify what we do, and just fought for our god-given right to go fishing.