In the workshop with Mark Tunley -YouTube

[Alan Whitty]

Yes,that is what he is implying Clive,so short rods are more powerful than long rods of the same genre,which is probably why I find I can get control of decent fish quicker with 11-12ft rods,which is why I don't use longer rods unless needs must,but as I say if anglers get more pleasure from fishing longer rods,or an angler personally finds them better for their fishing then power to their elbows.

 

[nottskev]

I watched the "Leverage" video. His focus is on what kind of rod exerts most pressure on a hooked fish. By the time we get there, we've already cast and stuck - and these parts of the game involve other qualities than skulldragging hooked fish in. If you've ever tried casting a 2-3bb waggler well out with a short rod built to lever big fish, the point makes itself.

Towards the end of the vid, the dude asking the questions asks what if you're after soft-mouthed fish like skimmers? In other words, if you have more complicated demands of a rod than max leverage. He immediately concedes you need something a bit different. Reducing everything to "physics" apparently involves assuming you already have a big fish on the hook, are using strong gear, are sitting on a nice clean bank and you're in big hurry.

His dogmatic approach reminds me of those tabloid articles: Why You've Been Organising Your Fridge Wrong/Making Tea Wrong/ Blowing Your Nose Wrong All Your Life. If you've been using fishing rods for 50 odd years and have tried all kinds of designs and actions whilst putting plenty of fish in the net, it comes as a surprise to find you're thinking all wrong. I'd say the "Leverage" is one dimension of a complex equation.

 

[@Clive]

Exactly. First and foremost the rod has to be capable of putting the bait where the fish are with whatever rigs, leads, feeders, floats, etc are appropriate. Then you have the striking aspect (or not in the case of bolt rigs). Then you have the playing, or controlling the fish. It is all a compromise.

 

[Alan Whitty]

Quite a few carp anglers don't need to cast these days,just send the bait boat out to satellite coordinates miles out and dump 3 kilos of bait with your rig and lay back and watch Thinking Tackle lol...

An 11ft float rod casts just fine until you fish over around 7ft,that float rod will have better control over a hooked fish than it would with an identical 13fter,that is what is being claimed,not fishing an 11ft Avon rod instead of a 13ft float rod...

 

[@Clive]

Sorry, I haven't a clue what that last sentence means.

 

[Aknib]

I agree technically with many of the comments made both in favour and against the number of rings on a rod.

How?

Well, they all stack up in theory... A kind of paradox.

But, stepping outside the box and trying to view it from an outsider's perspective I can't help but draw comparisons to the golfers I see throwing clubs after a bad shot and wondering why the Hell they do it?

For me it's when a pleasure and a passion becomes a competitive obsession, often fuelled by the heady mix of disposable income and the instilled requirement to improve, which in turn has been heavily fertilised by the marketers.

Just my opinion mind, but for those that reach beyond the bullshit and concentrate on pleasure as the main reward there's a whole spiritual angling world out there waiting to greet them.

Some of my best angling memories were using a pen rod which I could fit into my pocket, reel 'n all. I doubt I caught more but would wager I didn't catch any less and I have no idea what the sparse ring spacings were let alone how many there were.

No good for Barbel of course but I hope you get my drift.

 

[Ged28]

A couple of years ago I did a bit of floater fishing for carp in a very weedy bay. I used either a 12ft Harrison Ballista or a 10ft Fibatube glass carp rod. Whilst I don't doubt I could put more ultimate pressure on a fish with the 10ft rod, I always felt more in control with the 12 fter. I caught 8 fish on the 12fter to 4 on the 10fter, the twice I needed the boat out to free up a weeded fish were both whilst using the 10ft rod.

 

[Steve Arnold]

A couple of years ago I did a bit of floater fishing for carp in a very weedy bay. I used either a 12ft Harrison Ballista or a 10ft Fibatube glass carp rod. Whilst I don't doubt I could put more ultimate pressure on a fish with the 10ft rod, I always felt more in control with the 12 fter. I caught 8 fish on the 12fter to 4 on the 10fter, the twice I needed the boat out to free up a weeded fish were both whilst using the 10ft rod.

I did a lot of sea fishing with a Fibatube 1-3 ozs rod I built on blank, maybe the same as your carp rod? But the recovery was so S-L-O-Wwww compared to anything I have built on carbon blanks! I have a carbon heavy spinning rod that will cast up to 3 ozs and that is much more powerful than I remember that Fibatube rod was.

Recovery speed after compressing the rod means pumping a good fish is so much more efficient. Only thick walled, heavy glass blanks could do the same job as a light, stiff carbon blank.

Still loved my old glass rods, but times and materials have moved on

 

[@Clive]

I have rods made from whole and built cane, fibreglass and carbon. You can only make comparisons like for like if the rods are the same length and same sort of power. Once you start comparing rods made from different materials of differing lengths or power it becomes meaningless.

This sort of debate has been going on donkey's years. In the late 19th century into the pre WW2 period tournament casting was very popular and a lot of very clever anglers developed rods and reels especially for these competitions. Like carp fishing today, those tournaments resulted in advancement in ideas that filtered down to angling in general. The fixed spool reel is a classic example. That came about after a French competitor fitted a Coa-Coa tin lengthways on his rod and wound the line around it by hand. That was the first fixed spool. Another competitor, a Yorkshire textile magnate by the name of Illingworth realised that his machines were capable of winding thread onto spools so commissioned something like that to fit on a rod. His second attempt is basically the fs reels that we have today. Being a Yorkshireman he never took a penny from his invention. We are known for our generosity.

Rods too were subject to being improved by the desire to cast further than the next chap. Beach casters today fit their reels at the bottom of their rods to get better leverage on the cast. That was old hat in the 1920's. Rods were designed to have the reel mounted low and the design was improved to make the most out of the extra stolen length. Mr. Crabtree himself as his alter-ego Bernard Venables used a Craftversa rod that had a reverse taper under the handle as later seen on the ABU Zoom beach casters in the 70's. Richard Walker beefed up the butt on his Mk. IV design for the same reason.

Like carp angling today however, some of the inovations were distinctly one dimensional, as in making the perfect casting tool that was hopeless to fish with. And I think that the 12 foot, 5 ringed carp rod is a shining example of that. It ain't got no soul (man).

 

[Ged28]

I've never understood the reasoning behind reverse taper butts, surely they can only absorb casting power?
The ABU Zooms you refer to, are these the 484/464 range? As I'm pretty sure both mine had parallel dural butts. I do seem to remember Hardy trying reverse taper butts with the Springheel, I think.
I've used 12ft carp rods with 5 to 10 side rings and TBH they've made very little difference to a rods playing ability. Obviously the number of rings need to be determined by the action of the blank. I've a set of 3.25 tc rods, fairly stiff in the butt with a softish tip fited with 5 side rings, they work fine, as do the 7 side rings on my more through action rods of a lower test curve.

 

[Alan Whitty]

Sorry, I haven't a clue what that last sentence means.

Sorry,not an 11ft float,an 11ft float rod,oooops...predictive text is beating me Clive,it was meant to read not,not nor,I have corrected the post in question...

 

[Alan Whitty]

Ged,your 12ft Harrison is an entirely animal to your glass 10fter,so no comparison can be drawn,if it had been a 10ft Harrison of the same TC and blank range that would be a fair test which is what Tunley is driving at...

 

[@Clive]

Sorry,not an 11ft float,an 11ft float rod,oooops...

The whole sentence does not make any sense. If you are claiming that a match rod of the same length and rating as an Avon rod gives more control then I disagree. When it comes to stopping the run of a powerful fish or turning it using side strain, then the rod that bends most (within reason) will give the angler greater leverage and advantage. Also, In a fishing situation the lines typically used on a match rod would be less than on an Avon rod.

 

[Steve Arnold]

I've never understood the reasoning behind reverse taper butts, surely they can only absorb casting power?
The ABU Zooms you refer to, are these the 484/464 range? As I'm pretty sure both mine had parallel dural butts. I do seem to remember Hardy trying reverse taper butts with the Springheel, I think.
I've used 12ft carp rods with 5 to 10 side rings and TBH they've made very little difference to a rods playing ability. Obviously the number of rings need to be determined by the action of the blank. I've a set of 3.25 tc rods, fairly stiff in the butt with a softish tip fited with 5 side rings, they work fine, as do the 7 side rings on my more through action rods of a lower test curve.

The ABU 484 Zoom was a great step forward in beach rod design, probably the first to go with an ultra-stiff butt, very fast action and relatively (to that era) fine tip. The butt on the early ones was almost certainly dural (aluminium) tubing, sure I have seen them stripped down and cut to make boatcasting rods.

Great rods for distance at the time. The only one I ever owned was bought from Nigel Forrest (the ABU sponsored casting champion). I sold it on as I just could not bend it and it was even heavier than the standard 484. Nigel had ABU use a blank with an extra layer of glass (or maybe they stuck some carbon in it?) specifically for tournament work. He was a big, fit guy then, me a normal(ish) young human male.

So I sold it to a wannabe casting God, I went back to my bass rods!

As for those reverse taper rods, I had one and hated it. I met Les Moncrief ("inventor" of the reverse taper rod) at a fishing prizewinners event organised in Denmark by the Sunday People newspaper. I think he was big enough to cast any rod well and a great man to talk fishing with!

 

[Alan Whitty]

Clive,predictive text has changed my post,though I glanced at it before posting,I've corrected it and hope that it is more clear,sorry...

 

[nottskev]

It's a cold wet day here so I find myself looking at MT's video on rod design and rings, probably the one Alan referred to. He's just told me that the reason I don't fancy a 5-ring barbel rod is caution about anything new driven by evolutionary survival instinct! Just as "cave man" (sic) didn't run up to cuddle the first tiger he saw, my residual stone-age mentality stops me appreciating rational rod design.

There's a lot of interesting stuff in his videos, but some patronising waffle, too.

 

[mikench]

I’m glad I went with my wishes rather than his. After all a custom built rod is one made to the purchasers specification and wants regardless of aesthetics or form and not a stock product.

I wanted an Alps Waveform reel seat so there.

 

[Ged28]

I have heard rumours that a few rod builders are refusing to fit Alps reel fittings to certain blanks, due to occasional breakages caused by the rigidity of the reel fitting.

 

[Ged28]

Ged,your 12ft Harrison is an entirely animal to your glass 10fter,so no comparison can be drawn,if it had been a 10ft Harrison of the same TC and blank range that would be a fair test which is what Tunley is driving at...

The point I was trying to make was that the shorter rod, which can put more pressure on a hooked fish, so therefore should be more efficient for playing a fish in snaggy conditions proved not to be. In my hands anyway.
From your original post I thought Mark Tunley was advocating that a barbel rod would work just as well with fewer rings than is the current norm.

 

[nottskev]

I have heard rumours that a few rod builders are refusing to fit Alps reel fittings to certain blanks, due to occasional breakages caused bt the rigidity of the reel fitting.

CarpForum Thread : ALPS Reel seats : Carp Fishing Forum

CarpForum - The UK Carp Fishing Forum. Information, chat and advice

www.carpforum.co.uk