The CPs will come back with the "well we've over fished and polluted the seas" and of course they are correct. FEBs in conjunction with a population explosion of ottters are getting close to outfishing our rivers and lakes....so an interventionist cull is required. Simple adjustment to give ballance to the biomass pyramid. QED.
xenon
Well-known member
I agree. Unfortunately making the case at government level for blasting cormorants out of the sky will mean a judgement of the respective clout of angling against that of the bird loving RSPCA and RSPB. Who do you think wins that battle?
So we just roll over, accept our fate and do nothing??? That is exactly the angler apathy I refer to!!!
On a practical level I'd just like to point out that with modern shot requirements your unlikely to be 'blasting cormorants out of the sky'. The cost of non lead, even "cheap" steel, cartridges precludes their use. The 10b that more often than not would be the required tool where I shoot would be completely cost prohibitive .The 22lr rifle with subsonic rounds and moderator is the weapon of choice provided you have a solid backstop.
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Aknib
Well-known member
I concur.
For years I've been firing cubes of cheese at 'em via my faithful old Drennan Mini-Pult but the damned things just bounce off, on one occasion the bird circled round and plucked the ammunition out of mid air before it had a chance to hit the water, glancing me an appreciative wink as it banked away into the sunset
xenon
Well-known member
You seem to know a lot about shooting cormorants Liphook. No where do I suggest we do nothing-all I did was point out the disparity at government level between the bird gang and us. What to do? Well, I would not think it would actually take that much time and effort to have a significant effect on the cormorant population using guerilla tactics. Not that I am actually advocating such, no siree.
Culling cormorants is not something I enjoy. Doing it humanely with a single shot is part of my paid employment from time to time unfortunately - I'd much rather they stayed out at sea where they belong....and the circle turns....I ask for a common sense approach where true biodiversity wins. Not the 'feathers and fur vs fins' I often see. Ballance is the key
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xenon
Well-known member
My understanding, such as it is, is that cormorants have moved inland because the seas are depleted? Any merit to that argument?
no-one in particular
Well-known member
The inland cormorant explosion corresponded with the depletion of the seas so there is merit to that argument. This has affected a lot of decline in seabirds that could not adjust but cormorants found a way. I think seals are making their way further up rivers for the same reason but I don't know the facts about that. Gannets and puffins for example have not started invading inland yet but who knows, one day maybe. I often see Terns fishing along rivers, much more than I did so why not other seabirds creeping in on the picture some time. The answer should be to cure the sea of pollution and overfishing but would the cormorants move back! I doubt that will happen anyway but it could improve in time. They will just move to the best food base like most predators and if there are too many cormorants depleting the freshwaters then they will look elsewhere for food or just decline themselves as their food source declines. The problem is in the meantime they will carry on taking a lot of fish. They are very greedy birds, fortunately I see odd ones where I fish but not huge numbers of them but one river I have seen the fishing decline quite a lot over the last 10 years, I am pretty sure it is not pollution and otters are not present so it could be cormorants.
I just wonder if culling is the answer, you kill a cormorant and another cormorant will take the food it would have had and breed more young. And if not another cormorant, a pike or otter maybe or even a tern or possibly a gannet one day. I have nothing against culling, it will help a fishery in the short term but the long term needs to be found with putting the sea right.
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I strongly suspect it has been a major part of the issue, though I doubt I could actually prove it in a court of law and that's where it perhaps really matters? Some would argue the cormorants have settled inland because we have let them, whereas previously man would have intervened to protect what is in his benefit. Today we have a society that values feelings towards species that were previously considered vermin very differently. Seal hunting is a case in point. Seal populations are now much higher and they have taken up strongholds in new areas. Undoubtedly man plays the biggest role as predator on this planet. You only have to watch the like of David Attenborough to realise the extent of how we continue to overfish the seas even in the face of warning signs. Even in my 40 odd years of all round angling I can say man has changed the sea stocks - the Irish Sea is now rife with dogfish where once there was cod. Nature fills a void and it's all connected. I spoke to a professional crab potter on the E coast who had similar theory in that when cod stocks had been depleted it allowed the stocks of edible/brown to explode helping his business, but now that cod were managing to return slightly the crab fishing was tailing off. Should we just accept cycles of feast and famine? Or do we manage out the peaks a troughs whilst trying to maintain biodiversity and prevent habitat loss and species extinction? How much of it is overfishing vs climate change, pollution etc etc? My approach would be to proactively manage the FEBs, seals, otters AND man's interventions whilst we sort the theories into facts and before its too late. There are simply too many people making high demands on the planet to do nothing. A cull of humans wouldn't go amiss to address that balance........
Discuss
Discuss
theartist
Well-known member
A cull of humans is happening right now and we are all upset about it, obviously those who have lost someone would be, naturally. However were Covid infecting any other lifeform on the planet we would say it's natures way of thinning stocks out. I thinned out the squirrels in my garden now there's loads of small birds again. It's much easier to cull rats than birds than furry animals than humans and that's the pecking order right there
no-one in particular
Well-known member
I have noticed that Liphook, dogfish abound and tiny whiting, I think the spider crab is another one, nature just fills a void, we create a hole and nature fills it and it will probably be the same for cormarunts.
I read yesterday the bored housewife brigade have reapplied to get Lynx introduced again.
I read yesterday the bored housewife brigade have reapplied to get Lynx introduced again.
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no-one in particular
Well-known member
deleted
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Roach Obsession Diary. 1.30pm 27/1/2021
Mild. No wind. Me... feeling stronger, so spent the morning reading what the Forum thinks about our roaching future, and walking the river, feeding a quarter of a mile of nice water. I’ll return at 3.00pm, but 'till then think about these posts...
And here is what I think!
First, as far as I know/research/have been told, the cormorants that are the issue today are not our indigenous marine-feeding cormorants, but European freshwater-feeding cormorants that have been arriving in ever-increasing numbers the last quarter of a century. Depletion of the seas is deplorable, but not really the story.
Second, anyone who doubts the impact predatory birds have had should speak to my friend Steve Barnes, who runs Quiet Sports Fisheries. He has been netting waters all his life, and has seen a shattering decline in fish up to two pounds over the last two decades. The huge influx of these alien birds has altered the face of natural fisheries to the detriment of fish stocks, and creatures that have traditionally fed on these.
Third, in the UK we have a completely skewed idea of the countryside, a kind of Beatrix Potter fantasy that has no bearing on present-day realities. Hence, a vague feeling that Rewilding is necessarily good, that otters are to be universally acclaimed, and that unfettered nature has to be given its head in a small industrialised over-populated country. The BBC, and one of its presenters especially, have fostered this fantasy.
Fourth, I am a reluctant member of the RSPB. Whilst a great deal of what they do I disagree with, they do create bird sanctuaries, many of which are hugely successful. They have a million members, huge clout, and a lot of money, and they get practical things done for the good of birds. I am not aware angling has any body doing the same for fish. Commercial fisheries increase UK fish numbers, of course, but hardly help our natural fish, so we can count them out. The EA does bits and bobs, but has no joined-up philosophy or long-term plan. The AT has not the money nor the expertise. So the question is, who is going to promote natural fish stocks in a major and organised way, and then have the guts to protect those returning fish? The WTT (Wild Trout Trust) does a fair bit on some rivers, but its limitations are in the name itself.
A few of us have been taking direct action here in Norfolk over the years to some effect, but I fear that our efforts have always been piecemeal, and something on a far greater scale is required.
I don’t know how long this will run. I have a whole lot more to say, so, if it is the will of this Forum that we continue to explore the possibilities, then count me in! Though, like everyone, I’d rather catch a nice roach or two!
Mild. No wind. Me... feeling stronger, so spent the morning reading what the Forum thinks about our roaching future, and walking the river, feeding a quarter of a mile of nice water. I’ll return at 3.00pm, but 'till then think about these posts...
And here is what I think!
First, as far as I know/research/have been told, the cormorants that are the issue today are not our indigenous marine-feeding cormorants, but European freshwater-feeding cormorants that have been arriving in ever-increasing numbers the last quarter of a century. Depletion of the seas is deplorable, but not really the story.
Second, anyone who doubts the impact predatory birds have had should speak to my friend Steve Barnes, who runs Quiet Sports Fisheries. He has been netting waters all his life, and has seen a shattering decline in fish up to two pounds over the last two decades. The huge influx of these alien birds has altered the face of natural fisheries to the detriment of fish stocks, and creatures that have traditionally fed on these.
Third, in the UK we have a completely skewed idea of the countryside, a kind of Beatrix Potter fantasy that has no bearing on present-day realities. Hence, a vague feeling that Rewilding is necessarily good, that otters are to be universally acclaimed, and that unfettered nature has to be given its head in a small industrialised over-populated country. The BBC, and one of its presenters especially, have fostered this fantasy.
Fourth, I am a reluctant member of the RSPB. Whilst a great deal of what they do I disagree with, they do create bird sanctuaries, many of which are hugely successful. They have a million members, huge clout, and a lot of money, and they get practical things done for the good of birds. I am not aware angling has any body doing the same for fish. Commercial fisheries increase UK fish numbers, of course, but hardly help our natural fish, so we can count them out. The EA does bits and bobs, but has no joined-up philosophy or long-term plan. The AT has not the money nor the expertise. So the question is, who is going to promote natural fish stocks in a major and organised way, and then have the guts to protect those returning fish? The WTT (Wild Trout Trust) does a fair bit on some rivers, but its limitations are in the name itself.
A few of us have been taking direct action here in Norfolk over the years to some effect, but I fear that our efforts have always been piecemeal, and something on a far greater scale is required.
I don’t know how long this will run. I have a whole lot more to say, so, if it is the will of this Forum that we continue to explore the possibilities, then count me in! Though, like everyone, I’d rather catch a nice roach or two!
Mark Wintle
Well-known member
A bright note on this grey day; caught my first river roach of 2021, several small ones and a netter of 1-4.
no-one in particular
Well-known member
Interesting John, if cormorants are a sub species that has come here from Europe and not from our our own sea birds then is it just a natural event that we should live with? Totally agree about the re wilding that is taking place, short sighted stupidity in my opinion. As to an organization that was here for the preservation of fish, a good idea that anglers may support in large numbers and join; but it would be complicated. How would you envisage that, as an organization just dedicated to stocking fish in rivers.
One problem with it is how many anglers would be interested as very few fish rivers anymore, commercials are where most go or club lakes.
One problem with it is how many anglers would be interested as very few fish rivers anymore, commercials are where most go or club lakes.
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Currently angling has a little leeway to cull cormorants and FEBs by licence, but I wonder for how long? Wild Justice with their TV celebrity mouthpiece have been busy bringing court cases in England and Wales against the legality of the general licences to control some avian pest species (these do not cover cormorants and gosanders), although WJ have failed to make any major changes in any of their cases, general licences, badgers, game bird release, they have undoubtedly caused a lot of time effort and money to be wasted in defence of their cases. They are still looking for a success to up their profile - I don't think their celebrity likes to admit to failure in public.
I do hope anglers and their organisations are prepared to defend themselves against court challenges, because I can see WJ attacking the legality of the licences issued for cormorant and FEB's, don't ask me how as I am not a legal expert but they will be looking for any loophole that cannot be evidenced and a high profile success to crow about (sorry about the pun, the crows lost out).
The latest challenge to licences in Wales cost a shooting organisation £140,000 to help fight with NRW, this organisation have ring fenced a seven figure sum as a fighting fund against legal challenges to shooting. That is how seriously they take it and that is how seriously anglers should be taking future challenges to our sport - such as cormorant control - we may not have it for much longer I fear.
I do hope anglers and their organisations are prepared to defend themselves against court challenges, because I can see WJ attacking the legality of the licences issued for cormorant and FEB's, don't ask me how as I am not a legal expert but they will be looking for any loophole that cannot be evidenced and a high profile success to crow about (sorry about the pun, the crows lost out).
The latest challenge to licences in Wales cost a shooting organisation £140,000 to help fight with NRW, this organisation have ring fenced a seven figure sum as a fighting fund against legal challenges to shooting. That is how seriously they take it and that is how seriously anglers should be taking future challenges to our sport - such as cormorant control - we may not have it for much longer I fear.
The Slovenian or white fronted cormorant has been touted as the guilty incomer. I'm not at all convinced that is the sole species responsible or that they even are a truly separate species here in the UK? Have they not just bred with existing UK stocks? If you support the RSPB you are funding an anti angling organisation according to many so I'd be interested to hear your thinking behind that JB?
no-one in particular
Well-known member
Those TV celebrities' are doing the most harm, they have the biggest mouthpiece, one of them apparently said he would rather save an otter than a child from drowning. I don't know if it is true but that's what my mate told me. I mean they are not scientists or elected Government officials and yet they are getting control of the country. Take this Lynx rewilding, they didn't get permission to release 5 so they have re applied to have 3 released, they don't ever give up, farmers don't want them. Its the same with beavers, otters, bison, white tailed eagles, you name it they have it on their list, wolves will be next. The excuses they come out with as well, they are a menace to society, only satisfying their little god complexes but they have a huge following through television and that's all that's counts I am afraid.