Missed Barbel Bites

[Alan Whitty]

Kev,on a slack line the instance I mentioned wouldn't occur,you needed a lead and even if you left slack line they still continued to be missed,nothing is written in stone in angling and you know of the venue I often fish these days and how prolific it is,however they can be difficult to hook occasionally there too,yet a slight rig change can lead to fish after fish....

 

[@Clive]

I found this autumn that the barbel bites on float, worm bait layed on the bottom, with one medium shot, the bites were little different to chub and bream caught in the same session. Therefore a freelined bait could be taken gently and the fish only reacts when the line tightens. I sometimes use a small strike indicator when carp fishing in the margins. Tiny lead, the indicator set well over depth. It glides slowly over the surface which to me means that the carp has the bait in its mouth and still feeding. If I use a feeder and quiver tip for the carp, the first indication I get is a barbelesque wrap round.

 

[Alan Whitty]

I've watched barbel come in,take a bunch of maggots and where I'm laying on two feet overdepth when all of a sudden the barbel leaves and the float goes in a circular route after it before disappearing,obviously the lack of resistance is a major factor,nowadays I find I use a silicon float stop at various distances from the lead stop system,just gives them a kick start,depending on the amount of weight being used(my preference is minimal in the main)....

 

[Philip]

Some great observations from some very good anglers & this thread reinforces my belief that so often in angling a slight change from the norm can compleatly throw fish and supposedly "impossible" to catch fish can become easy to catch.

More and more of my fishing nowadays is around that principle. It doesnt take much either, a diffierent, tactic, bait or swim from the norm & their caution drops enough for them to make a big mistake.

 

[chevin4]

Personally I wouldn't bother to use a quiver tip for Barbel virtually all of the barbel bites ihave been very decisive. If you use a quiver tip as I have in the past you will be striking at line bites or little twitches which haven't fully developed. I think you may be experiencing line bites it amazes me on the small river I fish rods are positioned on the rod rest skywards cod fishing style which increases the angle of the line from rod tip to bait. Keep the rod low I use fluorocarbon X line which sinks like a stone and helps to avoid unwanted line bites

 

[Alan Whitty]

Hugh,I agree totally with using a rod top rather than a quivering,however,having actually watched barbel pick up baits,pull the rod right round and not be hooked,on soft bait on the hook,or hair rigged,the thoughts that barbel always hook themselves doesn't always hold water with me,just like watching big barbel eat all the feed in your swim and then being told barbel are easy to catch,the answer is ,that they can do/be on both counts....
Just like saying chub are greedy and eat anything,yes they are and yes they do,but on the same small river you mention I've watched chub come in picking at baits but my hookbait was being inspected and ignored,even to the point that some chub would swim round and round the bait tilting their heads with their eye within inches of it,is that happening on bigger rivers,I believe so,regardless how light you fish....

 

[nottskev]

I wouldn't say any fish always do this or that. But tricky barbel bites in my experience are the exception, and obliging self-hooking is the norm. I get what you're saying, Alan, but your barbel fishing must be unusually pressured? The combination of a little stream and a queue of anglers waiting in the car park for the starting gun? I tend to think all fishing benefits from occasional left-field approaches as fish wise up. At the tail end of the barbel fishing on the Derbyshire Derwent, when they were thinning out and it got very hard to get a daytime bite on a rig with a lead, a feeder or a tight line, I tried fishing with a small float on heavy pole gear. Instant success; presumably the different presentation didn't trigger their caution. But I also know, reading your posts over the years, you hate to be "done" by a fish, as you put it, even once. I'm not too bothered if they get a freebie at my expense now and then as long as I catch enough.

There's an old joke where the customer in the Spanish restaurant who ordered criadillas ( bulls' balls) wants to know why the ones on his plate are so small. The answer comes, the matador doesn't win every time. And we don't either

 

[@Clive]

Unless you can see the fish take the bait all you are relying on is an interpretation of your bite indicator. There are many videos of carp taking and discarding hair rigged baits before bolting in fright. It happens with barbel too. Being able to see into a swim is revealing. For example it doesn't matter whether you have a 2 foot or 6 foot leader. If you are fishing pellet or boilie the bait will end up within 18" of the lead or feeder. Even if your bait obediantly fell at full length downstream that still allows a feeding barbel to travel twice the length of the leader before you would see any indication. And even fish that have never seen a bait before have a degree of natural awareness.

Barbel don't explore the swim if there is bait on the river bed. They systematically travel upstream until the food runs out. Then they drift downstream and start travelling upstream on a different track.

If you put those two things together; a bait cast upstream and across and then when the lead or feeder has settled, bounce it back towards you to straighten out the leader, the barbel will have very little free line before it triggers an indication. Or use a float, layed on.

 

[Alan Whitty]

I've seen big barbel do similar on the H.Avon,you can't see into the water on much of the Trent,so when you know your in a decent swim and your not getting bites you don't know what's going on below the surface,I've seen it on the Ouse and Ivel,eating loads of freebies,takes not a one,did a fish mouth my bait without a three foot twitch,almost certainly,I talk to lots of anglers who say the barbel aren't here today,because they haven't had one,conceited lot aren't we,believing we know it all to catch them all the time...

 

[Philip]

I think when they clear us out of freebies the chances are they are getting away with it through feel rather than sight. They have pretty bad eyesight but of course super sensitive Barbels

I think they can detect something “wrong” if they move over a bait and can probably feel a hook or a stiff hair or hooklink fairly easily so pressured fish who have learnt through association of being caught on it a few times learn to avoid it and your basically hoping for a lucky pickup …two fish going for the same bait or through pure greed in a preoccupied feeding frenzy sort of situation.

Its one of the reasons why I am not a fan of stiff/hard fluro for hooklinks which seems to be all the rage at the moment for Barbel as I think they can feel them more easily.

 

[Alan Whitty]

I sat one summers afternoon on the Ivel in a swim that the barbel didn't normally frequent,I'd spotted a nice fish slinking off the small gravel run,after feeding a few small handfuls of 4/6mm pellet and 6 10mm source boilies I sat back and waited for a response after around an hour and a half I had three decent fish feeding,all doubles,four times I watched one of them swim with their lips over my double boilie,my hand poised on the butt,my rod tip jagged about an inch and the fish would wheel and glide away downstream,now I believe that fish had,had my bait in its mouth,would I ever strike at that,no,because I don't want to foulhook a fish that I might well get a definite pull later,which I did,a 14-10 beauty,the middle sized one of the three,the biggest being visibly bigger,in fact one of the three biggest on the stretch,on the Ivel the biggest fish came out several times on the float,they struggle to do you when they bite,resistance free...

 

[Philip]

Thats interesting stuff Alan, out of interest...the big one that came out on the float do you know how they were fishing it ? ...were they dragging the bait along the bottom or was it being fished up in the water ?

Same question for your frosty stick float and maggot catch the other day ...bait dragging bottom ?

 

[Ged28]

The very first Barbel I caught, about fifty years ago didn't show a bite at all. I had waded to mid river and was stood on a small flat rock in about 2ft of water. I looked down and it's head was sticking out at the upstream side, and the tail showing at the downstream side. I waded ashore and tackled up with a heavier line, a size 12 hook with a couple of BB nipped on the line. When I got back it was still there, but had dropped back a few inches so it's head was no longer visible. I tried laying my maggots just in front of the rock, where I could see them, but no interest so I bounced them down so they laid just under the rock, out of sight. The fish moved forward a couple of inches and what I could see of it's body seemed to quiver. I took a chance and struck, It was fairly hooked in the bottom lip. My mates and I caught quite a few Barbel from that stretch, but that was the biggest at 6lb and I don't think I caught another one from that swim.

 

[Alan Whitty]

Thats interesting stuff Alan, out of interest...the big one that came out on the float do you know how they were fishing it ? ...were they dragging the bait along the bottom or was it being fished up in the water ?

Same question for your frosty stick float and maggot catch the other day ...bait dragging bottom ?

Bait dragging the bottom Philip,there were several caught over 17lb on the float,but there are times in summer in particular when they come up to the surface and you can see them take your bait,in fact I think they use it as a ruse for not getting caught against the majority of anglers,just people like myself who have caught countless chub up in the water cotton on quickly,but the thought of guys trying to freezlining a 6mm pellet with 10-12lb line and a 1.75lb tc rod is impossible for the majority...

Let me clarify my shotting a little,I was using a 3 no.4 stick float,with a bb under the float(casting weight),a bunch of 3 no. 8 stotz,then 2 no. 8's,then two no. 10's,these two were apart for the majority of the session,these shottings were 3"-3",-3"-3" apart,from the first no 10,to the highest 3 no. 8's,im not saying its totally critical to have this shotting,but fishing a bigger bulk would cause problems,catching wise(on the river I fished on Tuesday),the float was set say 3-4ft deep,fairly quick,the barbel do come off bottom in the winter and the artist(Rob)said that the depth being fished didn't matter that much,the regular feeding of a few maggots got them cruising about looking for bait...
On the Ivel they were mainly caught on bulk shotted (3aa to 6aa,or the equivalent olivette),with two small droppers,or a small swivel.
Sorry for the waffle,geeky answer,but it is pretty important imo...

 

[Alan Whitty]

I wouldn't say any fish always do this or that. But tricky barbel bites in my experience are the exception, and obliging self-hooking is the norm. I get what you're saying, Alan, but your barbel fishing must be unusually pressured? The combination of a little stream and a queue of anglers waiting in the car park for the starting gun? I tend to think all fishing benefits from occasional left-field approaches as fish wise up. At the tail end of the barbel fishing on the Derbyshire Derwent, when they were thinning out and it got very hard to get a daytime bite on a rig with a lead, a feeder or a tight line, I tried fishing with a small float on heavy pole gear. Instant success; presumably the different presentation didn't trigger their caution. But I also know, reading your posts over the years, you hate to be "done" by a fish, as you put it, even once. I'm not too bothered if they get a freebie at my expense now and then as long as I catch enough.

I don't like getting 'done' but accept it if results ignoring getting done are OK,however this getting done is one and all at times,leaving you with a sore head where you are scratching it so much,the first instance I wrote about was on a club water where fish weren't under massive pressure,they just decided to be iffy,being able to see them gives you reason to look for answers,after all the carbellers with their massive feeders and pellets/boilies often don't catch,do they change....more fool them if they don't,I'm sure half a gallon of casters and imitation sinking casters on the hair would get more bites in periods of normal levels.I would put it to most anglers on FM that if you had several barbel munching on your bait and not resulting in a hook up,either by missed bites or sussing your set up,they would be trying to formulate an answer....human nature.

 

[Philip]

Bait dragging the bottom Philip,there were several caught over 17lb on the float,but there are times in summer in particular when they come up to the surface and you can see them take your bait,in fact I think they use it as a ruse for not getting caught against the majority of anglers,just people like myself who have caught countless chub up in the water cotton on quickly,but the thought of guys trying to freezlining a 6mm pellet with 10-12lb line and a 1.75lb tc rod is impossible for the majority...

Let me clarify my shotting a little,I was using a 3 no.4 stick float,with a bb under the float(casting weight),a bunch of 3 no. 8 stotz,then 2 no. 8's,then two no. 10's,these two were apart for the majority of the session,these shottings were 3"-3",-3"-3" apart,from the first no 10,to the highest 3 no. 8's,im not saying its totally critical to have this shotting,but fishing a bigger bulk would cause problems,catching wise(on the river I fished on Tuesday),the float was set say 3-4ft deep,fairly quick,the barbel do come off bottom in the winter and the artist(Rob)said that the depth being fished didn't matter that much,the regular feeding of a few maggots got them cruising about looking for bait...
On the Ivel they were mainly caught on bulk shotted (3aa to 6aa,or the equivalent olivette),with two small droppers,or a small swivel.
Sorry for the waffle,geeky answer,but it is pretty important imo...

Great stuff, thanks for that Alan. Yes I remember Robs comments as well & agree about them coming up in the water.

I need to read your shotting comments a few more times to get my head round it ...I dont tend to mess around too much with shotting patterns, I tend to stick to a few tried and tested. Its something I can improve on I am sure.

 

[Alan Whitty]

Shotting patterns are something an ex match angler knows can make a massive difference,and you can be trying and failing,or trying and getting a result off and on throughout a session,the venue on Tuesday has a surge of water every afternoon(sewage works a few miles upstream),it raises the level a few inches and at times gives it some colour(doesn't stink),so shotting and depth have to be played with,the Ivel was automatically controlled,so water levels would rise and fall every few hours,by as much as 6-10",which along with the increase in flow made a massive difference and you had to follow it when float fishing,the majority of anglers on both rivers are oblivious of the changes,it makes a difference when your fishing the lead to,but mainly when you expect to get bites...

Just to add Philip,these patterns are not written in stone,the pattern I used was decided upon by looking at the flow and how I thought might be about right,I was lucky as it turned out to be there or there abouts,another session I could have been fishing two no. 8's and two no.10's spread,the fishes response and how I think the float is going down is key to it.

One other thing,on Tuesday I would have caught well on the lead/feeder,as good as I did,who knows,however,I fished the float because I enjoy the doing of it and catching barbel on the float,add to that it's an active method on an icy day...

 

[nottskev]

I don't like getting 'done' but accept it if results ignoring getting done are OK,however this getting done is one and all at times,leaving you with a sore head where you are scratching it so much,the first instance I wrote about was on a club water where fish weren't under massive pressure,they just decided to be iffy,being able to see them gives you reason to look for answers,after all the carbellers with their massive feeders and pellets/boilies often don't catch,do they change....more fool them if they don't,I'm sure half a gallon of casters and imitation sinking casters on the hair would get more bites in periods of normal levels.I would put it to most anglers on FM that if you had several barbel munching on your bait and not resulting in a hook up,either by missed bites or sussing your set up,they would be trying to formulate an answer....human nature.

Sure. The carbelling style is a totally different branch of the sport, and one I've never been interested in. From June til October this year, aside from a few trips to a peculiar reservoir, which also, oddly enough, yielded barbel to 10lb, I fished for barbel on the river exclusively, always in daytime and not once did if involve a feeder, and normally a centrepin with float, swan shot leger, small blob of plasticine or freeline. I'm certainly not disagreeing that fishing, as opposed to trapping, is the way to go, and a bit of subtlety, finessing rigs and a moving bait are what catch when blokes sitting on a static feeder are dozing off. For all that, it remains the case, in my experience at least, that barbel very often help us by getting themselves hooked on even slackish free-lines and feeding them up in the water greatly increases the chance of foul-hooking. I often thinking I'd swap the local big river for yours as it's more conducive to the kind of fishing I like.

 

[@Clive]

On the River Wharfe at Newton Kyme there was a shoal of barbel that could often be seen taking ascending pupae in mid water during the summer months. It usually occurred towards evening when the sedges were hatching. You could see them turning sideways on like sharks do to intercept the pupae.

Since retiring to France I have had lots of time to study les barbeaux and learned a lot about them. There is always a shoal of 1st year fish feeding in a shallow run upstream of a bridge that gives a good view of them. They intercept suspended food and also dig the gravel, but they always stay in the same place. In summer they drop downstream to a more sandy stretch and their place is taken by newly hatched fish. As year 2 fish they continually feed by travelling upstream as a loose group until whatever they are searching for is no longer there. Then they turn sideways and drift downstream before resuming their upstream feeding behaviour. I sit on the bank watching these 9" - 12" fish hoovering the sandy bed over and over and over again. In summer thry drop downstream a few hundred metres and join the much larger River Vienne. Their place is taken by the Y1 fish from the gravel shallows, and so on.

The Academy of the Charente gives me a good view of swims 12 foot deep where every stone can be seen. There larger barbel of between 4lb and 6lb travel in small groups of 3 - 6 fish. They arrive in a swim usually from downstream and make a few tentative feeding forays. If they find something they mimic the Y2 barbel in travelling, snouts down, upstrstream until they run out of food and either swim away or drift downstream and have another go. If I have put in some particles they will stay a lot longer.

Every now and then I spot larger barbel travelling on their own. These are usually more unpredictable. They browse the shallows like carp often snuffling under stones and corkscrewing as they pull a caddis or snail off the rocks. They are sometimes in flow and depths that seem odd for barbel to be in. It puzzled me for years until the penny dropped. The shallow areas where they were seen were nearly always upstream of a fish pass or smaller weir or mill race. The main current was elsewhere, but they had found some flow even in these quiet areas.

Once whilst waiting for some vintage cars to pass by I went for a walk along a small fast flowing tributary of the Charente. Just downstream of a small bridge that allowed flow to pass via 2 concrete pipes, a barbel of around 4lb was suspended in the rapid flow that left one of the pipes. Despite the speed of the current itvarely moved a fin to remain static. Every now and then though it moved quickly to intercept something before returning to station, just like a trout would do.

There is a lot more to barbel than you would think.

 

[Alan Whitty]

To be honest Kev,if my old first choice barbel rivers hadn't suffered so much to otters,I wouldn't be fishing where I do,but,needs must and I love catching barbel,so fishing there is great,the other species make it a must,that said the Ouse and Ivel are relatively small rivers,clear in summer,as are most southern rivers apart from the boat ridden Thames...