Origins of barbel in the uk.

[Alan Whitty]

Rather than Google it I thought I'd ask on FM, but am I right in thinking the indigenous barbel in this country were all on the Eastern seaboard, ie the Yorkshire rivers, the Trent,Gt.Ouse and Thames and its tributaries with the Eastern side having none until stocked???

 

[treecutter]

Do you not mean the western side?.

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[Keith M]

Rather than Google it I thought I'd ask on FM, but am I right in thinking the indigenous barbel in this country were all on the Eastern seaboard, ie the Yorkshire rivers, the Trent,Gt.Ouse and Thames and its tributaries with the Eastern side having none until stocked???

That’s what I remember reading, They were only present from eastern facing rivers from Yorkshire down to the Thames.
The rivers in the west like the Severn etc., and even the Avon and Stour in the south were devoid of them until they were stocked.

I think it was something to do with the period before the UK became split from the land masses to the east back in time.

Keith

 

[Alan Whitty]

That's what I understood Keith...

 

[ian g]

My understanding too as said earlier UK was connected to Mainland Europe

 

[Philip]

Slightly off topic but this is one of the reasons why I find it hard to imagine that species like Barbel spread across from mainland Europe when the landmasses where connected but for some reason people think Carp didnt and so they have this "non indiginous" label stuck over them.

Seems a tad improbable really and imo its just a question of us not finding the evidence to prove it yet.

 

[Alan Whitty]

I don't think carp were indigenous to Northern France Philip,I believe those monks did an awful lot of illegal stocking...

Apparently the rivers in France that were connected to those in Britain before the Channel disconnected them all had barbel in them... allegedly....

 

[Philip]

Most of the studies I have seen seem to indicate they originated in the Danube then spread across.

Imo they were present in the UK before the last ice age and long before any monks but it would need someone to find a fossil & date it to prove that. The problem is that as there are unlikly to be many people looking and even less who would recognize one if they did dig it up so its unlikly to be proved any time soon.

 

[Aknib]

If anyone remembers Graham, AKA The Crow, they might also recall that he had quite an understanding with Barbel and in particular this subject.

Graham helped in the running of one of the Barbel organisations and was very well connected with others who I believe would concur with Alan & Keith's assessments, I can't fully recall whether it was eastern flowing rivers or simply eastern rivers though.

The latter makes sense to me but I could be wrong.

Either way it's all here in the archives for anyone wanting to search for it.

 

[Badgerale]

Slightly off topic but this is one of the reasons why I find it hard to imagine that species like Barbel spread across from mainland Europe when the landmasses where connected but for some reason people think Carp didnt and so they have this "non indiginous" lable stuck over them.

Seems a tad improbable really and imo its just a question of us not finding the evidence to prove it yet.

Carp, in the form we recognise them today, are essentially livestock.

They spread across western Europe in the same way cows or chickens did - by people keeping them to eat, then breeding them to be hardy, fat, and easily descaled.

Interestingly tench, although we think of them as native, and are not a man bred fish like carp, I've read were also introduced here as a food fish in ages past. It wouldn't surprise me if barbel were the same.

 

[Philip]

Yes, agreed in the form we know them today its a result of human intervention but the originals would have been here long before people basically domesticated them.

Carp aside there is probably little today that does not have some form of human intervention involved in its distribution & spread.

 

[Philip]

If anyone remembers Graham, AKA The Crow, they might also recall that he had quite an understanding with Barbel and in particular this subject.

He was indeed very clued up. Its worth noting Graham was also of the opinion Carp spread to the UK far earlier than people think. Anyway apoligies to hijack the Barbel theme.

Whats also interesting is that there are several species of Barbel on the continent from which I think we all agree they would have originated but only one of those species appears in UK rivers. My guess is that its tempreature related and the others cannot cope with the colder UK climate but obviously I am guessing.

 

[Badgerale]

Yes, agreed in the form we know them today its a result of human intervention but the originals would have been here long before people basically domesticated them.

Carp aside there is probably little today that does not have some form of human intervention involved in its distribution & spread.

My attitude to (king) carp is that they aren't native to anywhere - not even the danube. In the same way a chicken is not native to the jungles of south east asia where it's wild ancestors lived.

But I'll agree that there is almost nothing about this country that isn't in some way man made.

 

[John Aston]

Apart from hundreds of streams , brooks, burns and becks in upland areas, and in countless Scottish lochs where wild brown trout , and often grayling as well as rarer species like char . Those waters were colonised after the last ice age and hundreds of them have been self sustaining ever since.

 

[The bad one]

The definitive authority on European fish fauna is Alwynne Cooper Wheeler. Well worth reading some of his books and papers on the subjects of barbel and carp (king). Most quoted and cited stuff comes from his writings.

 

[Mark Wintle]

I'd love to know what the original species were in the Great Solent river (trout, salmon, eels, pike(?)...) - now many rivers including the Piddle, Frome, Dorset Stour, Hants Avon, Test and Itchen plus smaller streams. The spread of species nowadays suggests much interference from man over the past centuries. There's a theory that grayling weren't local (still not in the Piddle) until about 1800, chub possibly similar (only found in the Frome the last few years), and evidence of recent barbel stockings into the Frome, Exe, Test and Itchen.

 

[@Clive]

The ice age land bridge theory links the eastern English rivers with the Rhine. One of the strange things is that burbot which are present in all the Rhine rivers didn't feature in the Thames.

Regards carp; there have been many studies carried out using evidence taken from medieval middens and mentions of them in manuscripts. Richard Hoffman is part of a study group dealing with this and has published details. From this it seems to indicate that carp came from Asia via the Danube trading route into Germany, Austria and Switzerland. The spread continued down the Rhine as there is a portage route linking the trading routes that follow these two rivers from Asia into Western Europe. The dates mentioned in manuscripts do not support the monastic distribution or the theory that Charlemagne introduced them into France. The mention of carp inthe Treatyse is interesting as the author recommends fishing for them using minnows as bait. This is unique in English works and probably points to the author being Germanic, possibly the printer Wynken de Worde. In Germany carp were reared in stew ponds connected to streams where they would eat the minnows. There was mention of carp in rivers in at least one of the early manuscripts that are contained in the Treatyse and thought to date from around 1450. It would seem that this is around the time that they were first introduced into England.

I have not been able to find any reference to crucians before the 1800's. Even by the 1920's there were contradictary references to crucians by the leading authorities citing differing scale and fin counts. There is no doubt that some of the reference books are describing gibels, not crucians.

 

[Keith M]

Plus we had European Sturgeon in some of our major rivers in recent history too.
I think they moved up our rivers to spawn then retuned to the sea.

I think that the last known sighting of sturgeon in Britain was on the River Twyi in South Wales in 1993; although I heard that there was another small sturgeon caught and reported to the Angling times not so long ago.

THE ROYAL FISH RETURNS – Institute of Fisheries Management

Institute of Fisheries Management

ifm.org.uk

Keith

 

[sam vimes]

I've read quite a few texts about barbel. I tend to believe those that suggest that the Rhine system was the reason that barbel are native to England's easterly flowing rivers from the Humber to Thames. The suggestion being that at some point(s) in time, our eastern rivers have been Rhine tributaries. It's worth bearing in mind that, due to tectonics and glaciation, rivers have appeared, disappeared and changed courses massively over the millennia.

Here's some rather heavy reading and here's some fractionally lighter reading on the subject.

As for carp, I suspect that their introduction to the Danube is far more recent. I'd also doubt that they could ever colonise the higher reaches of the Danube naturally. That would make getting from Danube to Rhine rather more difficult than mere proximity might suggest. I find it fairly difficult to believe that the transit of carp from Asia right across Europe is remotely natural. I suspect that humans have had an awful lot to do with their movement. The difficulty is pinning down when and why it happened when archaeologists aren't exactly falling over each other looking for evidence. Romans? monks? barely anyone but anglers give a stuff.

 

[Alan Whitty]

We ought to trace them back and prosecute them for illegal stocking, bloody monks, lol...