Origins of barbel in the uk.

[@Clive]

I've read quite a few texts about barbel. I tend to believe those that suggest that the Rhine system was the reason that barbel are native to England's easterly flowing rivers from the Humber to Thames. The suggestion being that at some point(s) in time, our eastern rivers have been Rhine tributaries. It's worth bearing in mind that, due to tectonics and glaciation, rivers have appeared, disappeared and changed courses massively over the millennia.

Here's some rather heavy reading and here's some fractionally lighter reading on the subject.

As for carp, I suspect that their introduction to the Danube is far more recent. I'd also doubt that they could ever colonise the higher reaches of the Danube naturally. That would make getting from Danube to Rhine rather more difficult than mere proximity might suggest. I find it fairly difficult to believe that the transit of carp from Asia right across Europe is remotely natural. I suspect that humans have had an awful lot to do with their movement. The difficulty is pinning down when and why it happened when archaeologists aren't exactly falling over each other looking for evidence. Romans? monks? barely anyone but anglers give a stuff.

Thanks for the links.

The carp were transported by man, no doubt. As for the research: look out for articles by Richard Hoffman who is a lecturer in history at York and as an angler is part of many research initiatives throughout Europe. I have a book where he has overlayed the archeological evidence over the written evidence and mapped the finding by date. It clearly shows the Danube - Rhine route as the earliest references to carp in Europe.

 

[Philip]

It's worth bearing in mind that, due to tectonics and glaciation, rivers have appeared, disappeared and changed courses massively over the millennia.

Agree with that bit and as Barbel and Carp have been here longer than humans its going to be through fossil evidence that we ultimatly determine the earliest dates they were present in water systems. Human maps & records will only indicate the dates when humans had an influence on it.

As there are very few people looking however it could be we never really find out, its going to be pot luck someone digs one up, recognizes it and gets it dated.

 

[@Clive]

But why would carp perish and barbel flourish? If carp had been in England in Roman times there would be written references. That period ended about 800 years before the first written record of carp being in English rivers. And there are records going back well before that time of catches made by professional fishermen, sales at markets and purchases of food for royal residences. None mention carp.

The Treatyse of 1496 was made from several manuscripts. I think that two of them mentioned carp, but we cannot be sure of the origins of the information that were thought to be dated around 1450. The first dated record of carp being fished for by a named author comes from William Samuel's book dated 1577. But he had spent time in Switzerland during the religious turmoil of Mary Tudor's reign and may have acquired his knowledge of carp from that time. Carp had been in Lake Constance from at least the 1400's.

Leonard Mascall claims to have introduced them into England. However, everything that he wrote or is thought to have written can be found elsewhere and his claim wasn't published until after his death. If you work back to the time that he claimed to have introduced carp from the book he could only have been a teenager at the time.

The records of fish bones found in middens does not support an indignous population before the 16th century.

 

[Badgerale]

I wonder how well the carp bred in the UK in the past. Even now they are only sporadically breeding successfully outside of controlled pools.

And these are different fish to those of centuries ago - today's fish being bred specifically for cold resistance. Seems like a decade or two of cool summers would pretty much wipe out any population.

Whereas Barbel are perfectly suited to UK climate.

 

[Philip]

But why would carp perish and barbel flourish? If carp had been in England in Roman times there would be written references. That period ended about 800 years before the first written record of carp being in English rivers. And there are records going back well before that time of catches made by professional fishermen, sales at markets and purchases of food for royal residences. None mention carp.

The Treatyse of 1496 was made from several manuscripts. I think that two of them mentioned carp, but we cannot be sure of the origins of the information that were thought to be dated around 1450. The first dated record of carp being fished for by a named author comes from William Samuel's book dated 1577. But he had spent time in Switzerland during the religious turmoil of Mary Tudor's reign and may have acquired his knowledge of carp from that time. Carp had been in Lake Constance from at least the 1400's.

Leonard Mascall claims to have introduced them into England. However, everything that he wrote or is thought to have written can be found elsewhere and his claim wasn't published until after his death. If you work back to the time that he claimed to have introduced carp from the book he could only have been a teenager at the time.

The records of fish bones found in middens does not support an indignous population before the 16th century.

Its a fair point you make Clive but I think the population of carp would have been very different to what we have today. Even in the very near past Carp populations were different, its been discussed here on FM many times about about even as recently as the 50s and 60s Carp were a a prize catch, few had caught them and they were an enigma nothing like the situation today were its hard to find a water without them.

So if Carp were already here its also possible that we are talking about small localized populations that went unrecorded. Someone may correct me on this but even in the Danube the % of original wild Carp is tiny and its very rare to come across one amougst multiple other varieties in there. At the end of the day written record supports what you say but things could change in a blink of an eye if someone does dig one up.

Then again perhaps I am just seeing it with rose tinted spectacles as I would love to see the "non indiginous" label removed from them

 

[@Clive]

I think the Danube is being misunderstood Philip. I am of the opinion that carp were transported for whatever reason along the Danube trading route. Not necessarily in the Danube. Once it is impossible to float cargo in the head waters the travellers or merchants travelled on foot to the headwater of the Rhine and then floated eastwards down stream. Carp were stocked into nearby rivers and lakes first, gradually spreading south and west. Obviously some carp found their way into both the Danube and Rhine systems but these cannot be responsible for stocking other remote waters for the reasons given.

 

[The bad one]

What's being overlooked in the carp debate is that carp then a 1000 years ago and now are totally different fish. Anglers refer to them as Wildies and are very far and few between now. Wildies never got above 6-7 lb were long lean and fully scaled. Common like. My club controls a water a smallish mere formed in the last ice age in Shropshire where these wildies once existed sadly no more due to stock contamination. The written records go back a 1000 years and the family that owns the estate have those written record.

 

[Wakou]

Here you go folks.. An article about Barbel etc...

https://insideecology.com/2022/07/18/a-look-at-old-whiskers-the-common-barbel/

 

[barbelboi]

I believe all know records point to the mid 14th century at the earliest. There are records that show prior to this time that carp were imported from France for banquets, social occasions, etc.

The Romans were responsible for the introduction of carp into Italy and many other colonies from the Danube area. The United Kingdom was not included this initial expansion of the carps territory. Following the decline of the Roman Empire and the rise of the Monastic life of the early Christians the carp became a domesticated food fish of the monks. During this period the first selective breeding took place to try and improve the carp’s growth rate.

Records suggest that carp were present in England from the late fourteenth century, and that by the I53O's they seem well established and much sought after. Despite extensive searches historians have been unable to find reference to carp being kept in ponds in England before c1350. Research has shown that the most popular freshwater fish before this date were bream and pike, particularly on the royal table, where it is thought contemporary trends would be mirrored.

 

[Wakou]

see also King Henry I who died from "a surfeit of lampreys"

https://assets.cambridge.org/97805215/91317/excerpt/9780521591317_excerpt.pdf

 

[The bad one]

Here you go folks.. An article about Barbel etc...

https://insideecology.com/2022/07/18/a-look-at-old-whiskers-the-common-barbel/

Somewhat ironic that the author references the River Wye Herefordshire as they didn't start to appear in that river until the late 1970s moving into the river from the stocked river Severn ceca 25 years earlier.

Where he is correct is they were in Eastern rivers from Yorkshire to the Thames. And the reason why is the icesheet from the last epoch DID NOT cover that area and allowed the relic species in those rivers to survive and thrive. It would appear from the geological records that the lower/mid Thames was where a terminal moraine had been created stopping movement of the species further southwards.

 

[barbelboi]

Quite right Phil. The 50's stocking of the Severn came from nettings from the Kennet on the Wasing Estate, a venue I used to fish before moving.......

 

[@Clive]

When you take into account that before reformation most of the country was Catholic and it is estimated that the days when they were not permitted to eat meat could be up to one third of the days of the year. There was a big market for freshwater fish. This was largely supplied by commercial fishermen netting rivers and lakes and fish farming in ponds and lakes. It wasn't just the monks who ate fish. Of all the recipes published after printing became popular at the end of the 15th century none mentioned carp until at least the 16th century.

 

[Wakou]

But Chris, the law was 'flexible' There was a debate on whether otters were fish.

 

[Mark Wintle]

Somewhat ironic that the author references the River Wye Herefordshire as they didn't start to appear in that river until the late 1970s moving into the river from the stocked river Severn ceca 25 years earlier.

I would suggest that anglers transferred barbel from the prolific middle Severn (eg Bewdley) to the Wye. I think it unlikely they entered from the Severn down by the Severn Road Bridge.

 

[Alan Whitty]

In nearly every case of barbel stocking it takes ten years or more for them to proliferate, the Ivel, Gt.Ouse and Severn took at least that, the Trent was similar if I remember rightly, I remember catching 36lbs of barbel in a match, fish from 2-6lbs tops, on the Gt.Ouse no barbel were ever caught above Bedford(or 15 miles below) in my lifetime before the stocking at firstly Harrold, then Radwell, Sharnbrook and Milton Earnest, barbel being limited to the mill at Offord, often quoted by the late **** Walker, the Wye had no barbel present for an awful amount of time after the Severn

 

[barbelboi]

The fast water by the ancient bridge at Harrold used to be a good spot Alan.................