River Close Season – Is it time for a rethink?

cg74

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No Ray,
Im not prepare to accept whatever words the ATr comes out with.
Their track record of openess on this subject is simply appalling.

IMO MS and the rest of his bunch have stirred up this subject purely for their own financial gain.

Nothing to do with conservation of the riverine environment has ever been spoken or written about, the Trust has consistantly hidden behind a screen of secrecy and totally failed to reveal the names of those who asked them to 'initiate the debate'.

There is hardly a single 'name' attached to the ATr that doesnt have a vested (financial) interest in angling in some way or another, these are the 'names' that make the decisions, and in this case the divisions.
They are there to represent themselves and their businesses, and no way they can they claim to truely represent the anglers who are fishing for pleasure that WE see on the rivers.

The fact that the ATr has cosistantly distorted the truth (some may even call it openly lieing) with their claims that they represent 'all anglers' when in actual fact they only represent a tiny percentage of the anglers in this country ie; those who join as individual members.

Yes I will read whatever 'conclusions' the ATr draws from the 'debate' but I doubt it will contain the truth or those behind it.
.........

Glad you had a good first day btw.
........



"Let not selfish men and greedy interests rape our rivers of their natural riches and beauty"


.

This reads to me like it has been written about the EA!

I especially liked the quote you used: "Let not selfish men and greedy interests rape our rivers of their natural riches and beauty"
Were you thinking about the EA's Flood Defense team, the Abstraction Licensing team or the regulators of discharge?
 

thecrow

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Have you seen the subscription rates and membership numbers of the S&T? It's £40/year. Can you imagine the outcry if the ATr tried to charge that.

Stu
Originally Posted by thecrow View Post
I think one reason why the STA do better as far as membership is concerned is that there isn't the diversity that there is in coarse fishing that leads to so many differing points of view.

Nothing to do with that Crow, we are all anglers, they just don't mind paying for their sport.




The query was how do you know that its nothing to do with what I posted, I have no doubt that game anglers are willing to pay more.
 

stu_the_blank

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The query was how do you know that its nothing to do with what I posted, I have no doubt that game anglers are willing to pay more.
Sorry Crow, or as we are entering the realm of the S&T should I say Corvidae, misunderstood you. Where to start!

Salmon and Trout Anglers are a homogenous bunch? You have got to be joking.

Salmon; bait, spinner or Fly (or should I say I say flay).

Trout; Brown or rainbow, wild or stocked. Upstream dry, upstream nymph, downstream wet, lures, stripping, indicators (floats!), trolling for Ferox etc.

Grayling; a coarse fish or a game fish?

Match fishing.

Take or release?

You may think that these are just variations, after all for most you have to be able to chuck fluff but the arguments didn’t end with Skues and Halford, there is still a pecking order and an amazing amount of prejudice.

I could go on (chalk streams, upland brooks, commercials etc).

I think that the main reason that game anglers seem to be more aware of the need for unity is that they feel more threatened. In addition to the rabid anti’s they have the same problem that hunting did, they are perceived as being upper class, some are, most are not, but it makes them an easier target politically. They will be targeted first.

Stu
 

thecrow

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Sorry Crow, or as we are entering the realm of the S&T should I say Corvidae, misunderstood you. Where to start!

Salmon and Trout Anglers are a homogenous bunch? You have got to be joking.

Salmon; bait, spinner or Fly (or should I say I say flay).

Trout; Brown or rainbow, wild or stocked. Upstream dry, upstream nymph, downstream wet, lures, stripping, indicators (floats!), trolling for Ferox etc.

Grayling; a coarse fish or a game fish?

Match fishing.

Take or release?

You may think that these are just variations, after all for most you have to be able to chuck fluff but the arguments didn’t end with Skues and Halford, there is still a pecking order and an amazing amount of prejudice.

I could go on (chalk streams, upland brooks, commercials etc).

I think that the main reason that game anglers seem to be more aware of the need for unity is that they feel more threatened. In addition to the rabid anti’s they have the same problem that hunting did, they are perceived as being upper class, some are, most are not, but it makes them an easier target politically. They will be targeted first.

Stu




Thanks for that Stu, I now understand where you are coming from a lot better, I haven't had anything to do with fluff chucking but the ones I have come across have always been friendly and up for a chat.
 

stu_the_blank

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I haven't had anything to do with fluff chucking but the ones I have come across have always been friendly and up for a chat.
Sums up most people. Glad to read elsewhere that you should be out worm drowning again soon!

Stu
 

mick b

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I think that the main reason that game anglers seem to be more aware of the need for unity is that they feel more threatened.
Stu



.


Stu and Crow,
No, they don't feel threatened at all, infact its the complete opposite.


When I compare the attitudes of Game Anglers and Coarse Anglers at AGM's and Talks, the difference I notice most is that Coarse Anglers have an almost dismissive attitude towards the environment around them, all they seem to be interested in is catching fish with the 'result' far more important than the pursuit.

Game anglers are much more 'into' the watery world and the insects that populate it and at their meetings the talk is about improvement of the riverine habitat, water quality and fly populations, and I have never, ever, heard anyone talk about catches.

Coarse Angling meetings are about match results, who caught what and where, and because of the weed growth how this or that section can be made easier to fish, with the overriding theme being 'getting it over with'.


When a game angler leaves the water all that remains is some trodden down grass and perhaps a snapped off twig where a fly tangled, yes a few fish may be taken but more often the greatest majority are returned (recycled).

When a coarse angler leaves a fishery he may leave up to 5or6pints of maggots swilling around in the river, several pounds of mashed up bread and/or commercially produced groundbait and if he is a carp fisher pounds and pounds of highly enriched boilies (and then complains the weed grow) and worst of all a severely trampled or eroded bankside swim.

How many coarse fishing clubs have the a representative from their County Wildlife Trust sitting on their committees, very few I expect, 'we don't want them poking their nose in our sport' is the almost universal dismissive.
Yet these self same Trusts, employing highly qualified scientists, nationally comparable to the EA, already sit on many of our newly established Rivers Trusts.

We have much to improve in our sport and its about time we recognised it.

.
 

stu_the_blank

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Barbel on Ashurst weir on the upper Medway were well and truly 'at it' today. This is a southern river, they should spawn earlier here than t'up north.

Are we sure that any species other than Roach, Rudd and Dace always spawn in the close season? I've seen Bream at Blenheim spawning in late June, chub on various rivers spawning after 16th over the years, not to to mention the perenial offenders, Pike and Perch before 14th March and Carp and Tench after 16th June. (the tench on my lake started on 16th June this year and most of the carp are still gearing up to demolish the reedbeds!)

If we are serious about it being to protect spawning fish, should the close season not run from end of Jan (to protect the big female Pike as they shoal up) to about 1st Sept to let the late spawners recover? It would of course spell the end of river fishing as a viable pastime but it would at least have some interlectual relevence.

Or is it just 'I've never fished from 15th to 15th and that's the way I like it'? If so, had the close season not been invented in the early 20th C the objection to change, default position of most people, would be against having one at all

I'm not anti close season per se I just can't understand the mindless addiction to the current one. The reasons it came into being have been explained earlier in this thread. These are not relevent today.

That said, there will be no change to the status quo unless a real benefit can be proved. That is the way our country works. It hasn't helped the Ashurst Barbel though!

Stu
 

cg74

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Stu, in short, you've highlighted my reason for a rethink of the current Close Season but hey it's easier just to go on with the same old, same old.... No matter how ineffectual it may or may not be.

The thing is, these (shall we say) anomalies like multiple and fractioned spawnings are not actually that rare. If you consider the weather we've had since March, it'll go a long way to explain why.
The same happened last year... Oh and 2012.
Looking back to 2011 (I think, though it might have been 2010), the Lower Severn barbel were still visibly carrying spawn in mid-August.

But to some change or even a reappraisal is impossible to contemplate...

---------- Post added at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------

.Stu and Crow,
No, they don't feel threatened at all, infact its the complete opposite.


When I compare the attitudes of Game Anglers and Coarse Anglers at AGM's and Talks, the difference I notice most is that Coarse Anglers have an almost dismissive attitude towards the environment around them, all they seem to be interested in is catching fish with the 'result' far more important than the pursuit.

Game anglers are much more 'into' the watery world and the insects that populate it and at their meetings the talk is about improvement of the riverine habitat, water quality and fly populations, and I have never, ever, heard anyone talk about catches.

Coarse Angling meetings are about match results, who caught what and where, and because of the weed growth how this or that section can be made easier to fish, with the overriding theme being 'getting it over with'.


When a game angler leaves the water all that remains is some trodden down grass and perhaps a snapped off twig where a fly tangled, yes a few fish may be taken but more often the greatest majority are returned (recycled).

When a coarse angler leaves a fishery he may leave up to 5or6pints of maggots swilling around in the river, several pounds of mashed up bread and/or commercially produced groundbait and if he is a carp fisher pounds and pounds of highly enriched boilies (and then complains the weed grow) and worst of all a severely trampled or eroded bankside swim.

How many coarse fishing clubs have the a representative from their County Wildlife Trust sitting on their committees, very few I expect, 'we don't want them poking their nose in our sport' is the almost universal dismissive.
Yet these self same Trusts, employing highly qualified scientists, nationally comparable to the EA, already sit on many of our newly established Rivers Trusts.

We have much to improve in our sport and its about time we recognised it.

.

These game anglers, would they be the same anglers that kill roach and chub in many mixed species rivers. The same folk that for decades used to get the EA and NRA to remove grayling because they were to fickle for them to catch!

The game anglers you refer to must be the ones that fish exclusively on rivers that only contain game fish stocks, so the essentials for the rivers they're involved with are actually quite limited.
Whereas to get a river to successfully hold a large number of different species requires a huge amount of varying habitats.

You continually harp on about the ills of carp and commercial fisheries, lets not forget the likes of Dever Springs and Farmoor reservoir, are they not the game anglers equivalent to Boddington reservoir and Orchid Lakes?

"When a game angler leaves the water all that remains is some trodden down grass and perhaps a snapped off twig where a fly tangled, yes a few fish may be taken but more often the greatest majority are returned (recycled)."
How blinkered are you? Most coarse anglers that fish on small rivers don't tend to use much bait and have a tendency to rove.
But you do like stereotyping, don't you?

Out of interest, if I fed a loaf of bread on the Lower Itchen Fishery, exactly what harm would I be doing to the environment?
 

Ray Daywalker Clarke

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Game Anglers, Coarse Anglers, it doesn't matter, the close season is a waste of time, as fish spawn as and when they want, not because we set dates.

Get over it and move on, Fish all year on all waters. All clubs i know have all year fishing, and many close the water when fish start to spawn, many don't.

Whats the difference? There isn't, all is well on the waters i know that do both.

No one has any evidence to say otherwise on rivers.
 
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Ray Wood 1

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Morning all,
Nothing has changed, we are all still entrenched in our own views (well apart from one) on should the CS be kept,changed or abolished. No new arguments have been raised or put forward, it is now time in my opinion for the Angling Trust and Martin Salter to digest this debate.

The debate they called for along with some named anglers and others unknown to us at least. Once done they are duty bound to tell us what decision they have come to and if they intend to seek to have the rivers CS altered in anyway. Failure to do so will leave little doubt in anyone's mind that the Angling Trust are not to be trusted in the future.

I ask Martin Salter publicly to come on here and give the assurance that any decision reached by the AT will be made known to the readers of FM whom both he and the AT invited into this debate and to the general angling world ASAP. Over to you Martin with the greatest respect.

Kind regards
Ray
 

Dave Slater

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My views remain the same on this one. Why have a close season for rivers and not for lakes? I would prefer both to be the same, either have a close season an all waters or not have one at all.

There seems to be some kind of elitism among traditionalists. I can't see why some of these people consider one kind of fishing to be superior to another. Personally I get equal pleasure from fishing rivers, big pits, small lakes and commercials and catch good fish of many species from all of them. I don't think any greater or lesser amount of skill is required for any type of water, just a different skill set, and it is good to have some variety.

I don't think the close season covers spawning for most species. The only species I can think of that consistently spawn in the close season are pike, perch and crucians.

If the close season were reintroduced on lakes it wouldn't bother me but, as this is never going to happen, on balance I would like to see the close season for rivers abolished.
 

geoffmaynard

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There seems to be some kind of elitism among traditionalists. I can't see why some of these people consider one kind of fishing to be superior to another.

I don't think they do Dave. It's a perception which isn't really based on anything. I don't know of anyone who is a traditionalist who considers themselves part of an elite - but I do know loads of people who are very passionate about the CS issue from all sides of the argument. I think half the problems stem from wishy-washy authorities who make rules designed to appease, rather than to be effective control measures.
 

greenie62

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Why have a close season for rivers and not for lakes?
The argument went that river fish have a constant battle and expenditure of energy chasing the conveyor belt of food whizzing past their nebs and swimming against the flow which could prove fatal/debilitating after mating - whereas lake fish just 'chillax' and can leisurely have a nibble with minimum of effort expended!
I don't know if anyone has done any work to verify / refute this argument.
 

Paul Boote

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A good many gamefishers, whether they be fly, spinner or bait types, have to put up with a 6-month close season if they fish rivers-only. Do you see them telling the world that they're victims of some red-tapeist bureaucratic / Anti-Angling plot? Nope. You don't. For they know that some things, including fish at certain times of the year, are best left alone. But then we're modern coarse fishers and not only do we want it all all of the time ("like Now!", even "like Yesterday!"), but we also, always, know best. Just a bunch of ever-argumentative, sad-sack whiners, some - probably can't stand the course, don't know how it really is, "Noddies" - might be forgiven for thinking.
 
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Dave Slater

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Can't argue with any of that Paul.
Personally I have no problem with a close season for coarse fishing, in fact I miss the excitement of waiting for June 16th to come around. The preparation and the wait were so exciting and I miss it.
The only issue I have is consistency. Personally I don't see the difference in fishing for mainly, but not all, the same species in lakes all year round and having a close season on rivers.
Surely it would make more sense to either have a close season on all waters or not have one at all. My personal preference would be to have a close season but if there is not one on lakes then why have one on rivers? I would rather not have one at all rather than the current situation.
I can quite understand people who don't fish as much as I do getting confused with the issue as they can fish legally on one water and, possibly, not realising they shouldn't fish somewhere else, i.e. a river.
 

black kettle

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So few words from Paul Boote which about says it all. Apart from what the EA said about why the close season on rivers must remain.

Yes this remains a contentious issue for some anglers. Big deal. This is not about anglers and what they want. Its about a natural environment and what is best for it and all the creatures that dwell within in. And even putting that aside what's wrong with leaving the fish alone for a few weeks?
 
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