River Close Season – Is it time for a rethink?

Peter Jacobs

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Another nation-wide fudge then? Even if it were catchment based it would be a step forward.

I see absolutely no factual based evidence for a statement like that Geoff.

Going back to the old individual regions, even for catchment based close seasons would, in my opinion, be a retrograde step, and only give greedy anglers and trophy hunters an excuse to attempt to "beat the system"
 

geoffmaynard

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I see absolutely no factual based evidence for a statement like that Geoff.

Going back to the old individual regions, even for catchment based close seasons would, in my opinion, be a retrograde step, and only give greedy anglers and trophy hunters an excuse to attempt to "beat the system"

It seems to work on the salmon rivers for the game-fishers, why not for coarse anglers? It's the same argument surely Peter?
 

Peter Jacobs

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It seems to work on the salmon rivers for the game-fishers, why not for coarse anglers? It's the same argument surely Peter?

The timing of the runs on the salmon rivers (geographically) is not really comparable to the average spawning periods of coarse fish. Hence no regional differences should be applicable.
 

Peter Jacobs

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In the interests of a balanced viewpoint I am replying to Mr. Salter's points as noted below:


1) There is no point expecting a risk averse organisation like the EA to do anything without testing both opinion and the science.
If I remember correctly did the EA not conduct an opinion piece back in 2000 and again in 2003? I also think it somewhat disingenuous to refer to the EA as being averse to risk.
Given their position they are naturally in the firing line, as recent events have more than shown, so maybe that gives pseudo credence to your point, but nothing more. The EA are probably best equipped to study the pros and cons of the Close Season on our Rivers compared to individual clubs, associations and/or riparian Owners who after all have a vested interest in seeing its’ demise.

2) This is a live issue amongst a minority of anglers, particularly focused around the Midlands, but there are strong views on the other side of the argument too.
Why do you consider this firstly a Midlands issue and secondly why do you consider it an issue of relevance to only a “minority” of anglers in that area? Believe me it is a very important issue in my local Hampshire Avon Valley area and one that the vast majority of anglers hold a position on. Let us not forget either that the entire Hampshire Avon Valley in a SSSI, and I am still waiting for someone to give me a reasoned response as to what we could do about the loss of the Close Season in these areas as well as the problem of shared parts of the rivers with fly anglers?

3) There are risks attached to compromising the conservation credentials of angling. The impacts of any disturbance to spawning areas are clearly more acute in smaller streams than in larger ones. And of course we use the presence of the river close season to argue against unfettered canoe access to smaller, non navigation, rivers and streams.
Indeed there are, and to my mind we do not want to compromise our position where our conservation principles are concerned. The disturbance of spawning areas is just as important overall on larger rives as it is on smaller ones or streams, it is just not as instantly obvious on the large rivers.
As to the argument concerning the Paddlers, then yes, we do use the Close Season as an important augment, and again, not only on the smaller streams and rivers either.

4) Issues that divide angling opinion are more tricky for us, however, that is no reason not to engage with them but it is a restraint.
If speaking from an Angling Trust standpoint then I would remind you of Mike Heylin’s view some 5 or so years ago. That was that the Angling Trust had far more non-divisive issues to be getting on with; abstraction, predation and poaching for starters than to embark on a membership-splitting issue like the Close Season . . . .

5) There are differing close seasons on different game rivers, depending on local fish spawning patterns, so why not on coarse rivers?
I think that different Close Seasons would lead to infringement and confusion; we already have some rather daft ideas about allowing fishing with a hook of a given size of gape etc., and have seen the likes of Des Taylor attempting a law-busting exercise some years ago, and that was in the midlands if I am not mistaken? And again we see the same angler supporting the loss of the Close Season.
Then there was the thin end of the wedge on stillwaters where greedy fishery owner stocked a few trout and then advertised "any method Trout fishing" through the old Close Season. We don't want to see that again, thank you very much.

6) Although close seasons are about protecting fish rather than tackle shops there is an issue about impacts on businesses.
No there isn’t!
Not in the slightest!
The vast majority of tackle shops that are more than a few years of “age” went into their businesses with a proper business plan that took account of the Close Season and the possibility of reduced income during mid-March to mid-June.
If they didn’t then they were short sighted and deserve to go out of business. This line of argument smacks of the “greed” that saw the loss of the Close Season on still-waters and canals. It was wrong then and would be equally wrong now.

7) The existing close season does not have a huge basis in science and is overdue for a review.
It was reviewed in 2000 and again in 2003. Those calling for more or different reviews only do so because the previous ones did not fit with their position.
I would support a science-based review over a prolonged period myself, just not knee jerk reactions based on poor knowledge.

8) Part of this review could include an experiment in a specific catchment. Perhaps the Severn?
See 7 above,

9) Some fish do feed when spawning. At the start of the 2013 season captured Wye barbel were secreting milt in mid June. On the other hand species like dace, whilst readily caught when shoaled up prior to spawning, seem to disappear once spawning commences.
Yes, “some” do however, as a blanket protection measure the current dates are still more than worthwhile for the majority of species, in most areas in most average annual weather conditions.

10) Dace and pike are the early spawners, often in March, followed by a lull in April. Roach and perch tend to spawn next and then chub and barbel in the May / June period. So I guess there’s an argument for closing the river pike season off on March 1st and shifting the river break to May and June. This way we would be delivering a longer river season at the optimum time for both anglers and fish and without compromising our conservation credentials.
No, I don’t agree at all, although the idea of stopping the trophy hunting and greedy pike anglers from catching artificially heavy but gravid fish is very attractive. Most thinking anglers would not target gravid fish in any event, which is why many will not fish for Trench until later in the season.
This is seemingly a poor compromise based on nothing but the hope of reinforcing your, otherwise weak, argument.
 
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Ray Wood 1

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Nice post Peter.
This debate will go on and on it seems as no one seems to have the answers or the right reasons to either change or abolish the CS, well not ones that the EA or the Government will listen to.

To quote SP
“Much of what I will say has been said already, there's nothing new about any of this, in some ways it's just a revisit ten years or so down the line from when the subject last came under serious scrutiny and I believe that is a reasonable course of action.”

That statement would appear on face value at least suggest that he will not come up with anything new. Given that he was against any change during the period he intends to revisit and campaigned vigorously to preserve the CS as it now stands during that period, his call for change looks dead in the water.

I have just come back from my local tackle shop getting bait for the final few days of the season. A few BS members were in there getting bait, they fish Kings Weir and Fishers Green. To a man they stated that if the BS back this call for change they will not renew their membership. Two of them are members of the Angling Trust and likewise will not renew their membership of that either on the same grounds.

Kind regards
Ray
 

geoffmaynard

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The timing of the runs on the salmon rivers (geographically) is not really comparable to the average spawning periods of coarse fish. Hence no regional differences should be applicable.

Not really? If we don't average the one why should we average the other? Different species spawn at different times, especially in different geographical areas; surely it's a nonsense to declare a spawning period to a fish which either spawned prior or later than the 'averaged' dates.
 

Peter Jacobs

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Not really? If we don't average the one why should we average the other? Different species spawn at different times, especially in different geographical areas; surely it's a nonsense to declare a spawning period to a fish which either spawned prior or later than the 'averaged' dates.

No, it is not a "nonsense" at all, for a blanket close Season the current dates protect most species in most years in average weather conditions.

Furthermore, no one has any detailed scientific study evidence to provide evidentiary support for your claims with respect to Coarse Fish.
Surely this is what the debate is all about; is it time for a rethink?
Personally I'd say, no it isn't, as it stands it ain't broke so there is no need to fix it, (commercial or greed interests apart that is)
 
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mick b

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I see absolutely no factual based evidence for a statement like that Geoff.

Going back to the old individual regions, even for catchment based close seasons would, in my opinion, be a retrograde step, and only give greedy anglers and trophy hunters an excuse to attempt to "beat the system"


Well said Peter,

I totally agree.
 

geoffmaynard

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Personally I'd say, no it isn't, as it stands it ain't broke so there is no need to fix it, (commercial or greed interests apart that is)

Competely disagree Peter. It is totally broke and has been since day one. We have separate regiaonal closed seasons for different game fish and in different areas - rightly so, to protect them. We should do the same for coarse fish. Where's the difference? They are all just fish. Nothing to do with commercial interests, that's just muddying the waters imo. Why 'average' it at all when we can be specific? That's what's wrong with applying national rules, it pretends to protect everything everywhere and ends up hardly protecting anything. Local governance is the obvious route and cheapest if left to the fishery managers - but it removes power from those who now have it, and they don't like that out of principle.
 

Peter Jacobs

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Then we will agree to disagree Geoff.

I highly doubt that commercial interests are not at work behind the scenes, both manufacturers, retail shops and so-called guides and professionals.

Local governance would be based on what?
Local interests that's what, whereas National governance is, or should be, overseen by scientific advisors and not commercial interests.
(one supreme difference between the Angling Trust and the Salmon and Trout Association, by the way)

My view is that there can simply be no compromise whatsoever; you don't experiment with nature, the potential for disaster is too great.

That stillwaters have open season all the year around is not a proper comparison either, as I've noted previously, most (note "most") stillwaters are artificially stocked whereas rivers are not.
On the rivers we depend on natural spawning and hope that the annual floods, and predation, don't take too much of a particular year class for the continuation of our sport.

Whichever way you look at it, maintaining the current status quo makes sense in most cases, in most areas, and in most average weather patterns.

Was it not Peter Stone who used to say that the Close Season lends respectability to our sport as well as to us anglers?
 

Ray Wood 1

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These spawning times for different species are widely recognised as the norm in the UK in normal weather conditions. Of course weather conditions can have an effect either way i.e. warm/cold weather early in the year fish may spawn earlier or later.

Dace early March.
Roach April through May
Chub late spring
Bream April through June
Barbel May/June/July
Carp Spring and can spawn several times.
Pike March/April
Perch March/May
Zander April/June

Given all these species are present in our rivers the current CS covers things quite nicely in my humble opinion. so how do you come to the conclusion that the CS is broken and has been since day one Geoff? I fail to see how basing the CS on individual species and separate regional areas will be any better, in fact it could be far worse than the blanket national CS that is in place.

Would you care to explain for us how you would see it work in the form you claim would be better?

Both SP and MS have indicated that the call for change is based on lost income for tackle shops, clubs. SP out of concern for financial survival not sure if that is his own survival or that of others. The AT have written to that PM to ask that the tackle trade and tackle shops be included in the flood compensation scheme.

Most anglers seem to be in one camp or the other, you either support the current CS or want it abolished. Those in favour of it being abolished have not got their way in previous debates and arguments and more importantly with the EA or the government.

This new call for change is slightly different and those involved have introduced a new argument based on loss of revenue for the tackle trade and tackle shops. But lets not forget their own interests are involved.Possibly they believe it will lend more weight to their argument for change.

They possibly hope that both the EA and the government will listen and be more inclined to help the trade, rather than a few anglers who have not been able to wet a line or ply their trade.

To say commercial interests are involved is certainly not clouding or muddying the water.

Kind regards
Ray
 
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geoffmaynard

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I'm not in either of the two camps for/against. I'm for a common sense solution on both lakes and rivers whereby e.g. if carp are spawning in July say, then the local fishery manager can stop people fishing for them. This protects them - the current regs don't.
Why stop people fishing for dace in May and June if they've spawned in March? Might as well stop people fishing for them in Dec too then, three months one way or another is a good enough 'average'. Humph. :wh
It's a lunacy to lump them all together.
 

Ray Wood 1

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I'm not in either of the two camps for/against. I'm for a common sense solution on both lakes and rivers whereby e.g. if carp are spawning in July say, then the local fishery manager can stop people fishing for them. This protects them - the current regs don't.
Why stop people fishing for dace in May and June if they've spawned in March? Might as well stop people fishing for them in Dec too then, three months one way or another is a good enough 'average'. Humph. :wh
It's a lunacy to lump them all together.

Why stop people fishing for Dace in May and June, simple really, as we all know you can’t target species exclusively so allowing anglers on our rivers during May and June to fish for Dace would place other species at risk would it not? Based on your argument for a species/area related CS you could very well end up with a six month CS. Yes a three month CS is a good enough average as it covers things as best as we could hope for and lumping them all together is far from lunacy.

If you want common sense for both rivers and lakes then a blanket CS should be reintroduced.

Kind regards
Ray
 
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peter crabtree

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The close season is here to stay and is unlikely to change for many years.
Look at the cormorant issue. How many years has that been rumbling on?
Every time some progress is made we are told that another x years of consultation must take place first.
Imagine how many years consultations etc on a subject so diverse as our National river systems would be before the close season is ever changed?

I rest my case....
 

Peter Jacobs

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It's a lunacy to lump them all together

On the contrary Geoff, it is pure lunacy to suggest different closed periods for different species, as Ray notes above.

It is simply not possible to sit on a river and to only catch Dace, or any other individual species, so a blanket closed period is the only sensible solution.
And, as someone else quoted on a different thread:

"the closed season is a nature reserve in time instead of space"

Richard S. Walker

 

sam vimes

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On the contrary Geoff, it is pure lunacy to suggest different closed periods for different species, as Ray notes above.

It is simply not possible to sit on a river and to only catch Dace, or any other individual species, so a blanket closed period is the only sensible solution.
And, as someone else quoted on a different thread:

"the closed season is a nature reserve in time instead of space"

Richard S. Walker


I don't necessarily disagree. However, if that closed season is at the wrong time, it reduces any benefit and it becomes little more than a token to prove how much angling cares. Then you've got the fact that many rivers will have fly anglers fishing right through the coarse closed season. On mixed rivers, they will catch coarse fish and they will wade.

People seem to automatically assume that the closed season has a beneficial effect for coarse fish. There's no evidence to support that assumption. Whilst it may be unlikely, it could actually be the case that the closed season actually has a negative effect. It would certainly be the ultimate irony if those with totally closed minds on this subject are actually supporting something that turns out to be doing more harm than good.
 

cg74

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These spawning times for different species are widely recognised as the norm in the UK in normal weather conditions. Of course weather conditions can have an effect either way i.e. warm/cold weather early in the year fish may spawn earlier or later.

Dace early March.
Roach April through May
Chub late spring
Bream April through June
Barbel May/June/July
Carp Spring and can spawn several times.
Pike March/April
Perch March/May
Zander April/June

Given all these species are present in our rivers the current CS covers things quite nicely in my humble opinion.

Kind regards
Ray

I'd start by saying carp and zander are both invasive alien species, so should be removed from the list.
Also, barbel like carp can/do spawn several times in a year.
Dace often spawn in Feb; so coarse fish spawnings regularly covers a period from Feb to July.

So if the Close Season is in place to protect and promote successful breeding, it surely needs expanding?
And to be a truly worthwhile conservation exercise, if brown trout are present in a river, it must offer them equal protection?
So on mixed rivers a Close Season (covering ALL species) from November to July should be implemented, or not?

---------- Post added at 11:20 ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 ----------

I don't necessarily disagree. However, if that closed season is at the wrong time, it reduces any benefit and it becomes little more than a token to prove how much angling cares. Then you've got the fact that many rivers will have fly anglers fishing right through the coarse closed season. On mixed rivers, they will catch coarse fish and they will wade.

And to flip that around - how catchable are trout during their Close Season on maggots, worms, bread, lures, live/dead baits......?
 

Peter Jacobs

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I don't necessarily disagree. However, if that closed season is at the wrong time, it reduces any benefit and it becomes little more than a token to prove how much angling cares. Then you've got the fact that many rivers will have fly anglers fishing right through the coarse closed season. On mixed rivers, they will catch coarse fish and they will wade.

People seem to automatically assume that the closed season has a beneficial effect for coarse fish. There's no evidence to support that assumption. Whilst it may be unlikely, it could actually be the case that the closed season actually has a negative effect. It would certainly be the ultimate irony if those with totally closed minds on this subject are actually supporting something that turns out to be doing more harm than good.

As far as my local areas are concerned Sam the number of coarse fish above Salisbury, where most of the fly fishing takes place, are negligible, so the wading issue is a non starter.

As far as having a "closed mind" is concerned, and speaking personally, I take exception to that comment.
Personally, I am open to lengthy scientific trials and studies in all regions to ascertain the timing of the Close Season. Then, suitably armed we can discuss the results and see where those may take us . . . . . . .

However, until and unless those studies are undertaken I will continue to rally against any changes to the status quo; as I said before, you don't experiment with nature, and certainly not with our rivers that already face an uphill struggle with abstraction and predation.
 
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sam vimes

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As far as my local areas are concerned Sam the number of coarse fish above Salisbury, where most of the fly fishing takes place, are negligible, so the wading issue is a non starter.

As far as having a "closed mind" is concerned, and speaking personally, I take exception to that comment.
Personally, I am open to lengthy scientific trials and studies in all regions to ascertain the timing of the Close Season. Then, suitably armed we can discuss the results and see where those may take us . . . . . . .

however, until and inless those studies areu ndertaken I will continue to rally against any changes to the status quo; as I said before, you don't experiment with nature, and certainly not with our rivers that already face an uphill struggle with abstraction and predation.

But that's half the problem. For the waters you are thinking of, the closed season as it stands probably does seem to fit quite nicely. For the waters I have in mind, even without throwing the worm fishing for trout bye law into the mix, the closed season is an ineffectual, illogical, mistimed joke.

The closed mind comment is aimed squarely at those that are doing the la la la, I'm not listening routine. Their arguments are invariably boiling down to "it suits me, so screw you". They are dressing it up otherwise, but that's the reality.

The biggest assumption seems to be that the closed season is/was based on some kind of science, it isn't and wasn't. I've no problem with those that don't wish to rush headlong into change, it's entirely sensible. However, I do find those that refuse to acknowledge that other areas might be different, or refuse to countenance any changes, regardless of any evidence, to be very strange. That kind of attitude is equally as selfish as those that wish for abolishment regardless of any evidence are accused of being.

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 ----------

And to flip that around - how catchable are trout during their Close Season on maggots, worms, bread, lures, live/dead baits......?

I couldn't tell you about bread, lures, lives or dead baits, not something I do.
However, I never catch trout in the trout closed season, just look at the few catch reports I've posted. I do catchh quite a few weird looking chub with spots though.;):D
 
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