River Roach obsession – part two

J

John Bailey

Guest
So, how did we get on, Ian and I, on our second day on the river Wensum. Day One had been a success undoubtedly – when is a near “two” roach not a triumph these days but, of course, like it or not, ounces do matter. I awoke with roach on my mind!!

Robbie Northman was joining us for the day and that alone is a result. Can there be a more talented young angler on the UK scene today? I certainly haven’t met him or her if there is. And to add joy oh joy, the night rain had pushed the river up six inches, but more vitally, had given it a dash of late autumn colour. A recently ottered jack pike gave us cause for concern but we need not have fretted, fish came thick and fast. It wasn’t the perfect day. This was a day ticket stretch and there was endless activity to cope with and the colour did drop out fast after 11.00am but by then we had enjoyed a roach fest.

  • otter-evidence.jpg
  • DSC_0312.jpg
  • DSC_0330.jpg
  • DSC_0244.jpg

Ian was in a deeper, slower bend where he could lay on, a couple of feet overdepth. He moved now and again to rest the swim but he kept coming back and it worked with a dozen roach to mid “ones.” Robbie and I trotted for the main part and again clunkers to 1.09 fell to double maggot on a 16. As the water cleared and the roach drifted away, the dace took over, scores of them, silver beauties to a weighed 13 ounces. Later afternoon, after a draining battle, I lost a ‘six” plus chub at the net. Plus? Plus a fair bit I’ll tell you!

DSC_0294.jpg

Robbie Northman

There was a moment, around 3pm, when the sun broke through and I was thigh deep in the flow, that I realised what bliss the day was. How good does it get? The shifting, golden lights. A tiny, well-shotted float burying over and again as one silver dace after another fights to the net. Glorious. The rhythm of casting, mending, striking, playing and admiring these glowing fish. This was wonderful. But, as ever, POINTS TO PONDER!

Two or three maggots on a 16 are my go-to but one of them always can decide to curl itself over the hook point and mask the strike. All you feel is a dull thud as the fish rolls off free. I make it a religion to check the hook is clear before every cast, just in case. You might get just the one chance…of a “two”, perhaps once in a lifetime. By the way, in heavier, more powerful flows, that hook might become a 14, even a 12.

DSC_0270-e1605616325808.jpg


I also get into the routine of changing the hook itself every 6 fish or so. Big roach are the Houdinis of the fish world. If they can throw a hook, they will. Don’t give them a ghost of a chance is my motto.

Of course, maggots are not selective. You pick up everything from big chub to sprats of gudgeon and every struggling fish that goes past them reduces the chances of big roach biting. Flake? Fantastic but make the hook a 10 I’d say. Corn? I actually tried it and not a bite did I get. A great summer bait but not so come winter..that’s my finding anyway.

  • DSC_0231.jpg
  • DSC_0295.jpg

I fed heavily. Every cast I put in a handful of loose maggots, not a pinch. In mild weather, in a coloured river, I like to get the swim going. I guess in the day I went through four pints, not bad on a smaller river.

Of course, the BIG debate is this. Do you stick with a swim and build it up over the day? Or do you move when you sense the fish are wising up and scattering? I don’t know..honest. If the river is not busy and if there are vacant swims, then I am a mover. But I have known plenty of stickers who have done as well, or better, than I have. Temperament? How you like to fish? There are no wrongs in this sport of ours.

I like to trot smooth water in an easy, rhythmic way. I’m not hot on holding back hard. I like my shot bulked to get the bait down. I play fish fairly hard, in part to avoid hook slips, in part to minimise pike attacks on the retrieve. If pike are a problem, I move OR try to catch it and move it instead.

Use kit you love, you have confidence in and that you find helps you fish well and without fatigue. Me? I love my Hardy Marksman 14 footer and my Piscario pin…costs a bomb but, hey, it’s for life. The combo is meaty but well balanced, positive, and still tactile. Given half a chance I’d back myself to land Moby **** if he came along. I’ve trotted a thousand miles with these two and they just get better, extensions to my very body. And that is how it should be for you too.

DSC_0272.jpg


Guys around us were using keepnets. They weren’t in a match. They weren’t kids wanting to show their catch to their parents. These were wild, fragile fish, impossible to replace unless Nature plays her part. SURELY it is time to say goodbye to them outside competition fishing…what do YOU think?

And why are maggot pouches made with deep seams to them? After the session, in the dark, you think you have washed them out but a score remain, hidden and buried, waiting to weevil their way out as you drive home. It’s fly time come a warm New Year!

The post River Roach obsession - part two first appeared on FishingMagic Magazine.

Continue reading...
 

theartist

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2010
Messages
4,179
Reaction score
1,735
Location
On another planet
Some interesting points there John, thanks for the write up,

Re keep nets, hope you have got a tin hat, whilst I'm not keen on them myself there are plenty here that are, may I ask how is your friend showing two fish in a photo without retaining fish in a net?

Changing the hook every six fish? Do you ever think that's a bit extreme? There's me using the same hook until it pops any maggots then I sharpen it manually, (I'll probably jinx it now by saying this) but I rarely lose a big roach ( I think I've lost only one genuine 'two' ever) and it's even rarer to lose any fish at the net, maybe this is luck but this is all despite using barbless hooks and pretty cheap but balanced gear, with a cheap but unbalanced angler :)

Also have you ever tried pellet on the float? Not sure about the Wensum but on other rivers it can be a devastating method.

Ps It's great to see the Wensum coming back for the roach, that looks a lovely stretch

Cheers
Rob
 

Peter Jacobs

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Messages
31,050
Reaction score
12,244
Location
In God's County: Wiltshire
I was "with you" right up until the point where you commented on keepnets John.

I really don't see a huge problem in using one, although I don't every time I fish, but we have more than enough problems in the sport (from outside) without making new ones from inside.

Far better surely to leave it to the individual angler?
 

Mark Wintle

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2002
Messages
4,481
Reaction score
842
Location
Azide the Stour
I last fished a match 9 years ago and had almost stopped using a keepnet by then and definitely haven't used a keepnet since 2013 without detriment to my catches. The current habit of not just usimg a keepnet but cramming fish into a landing net for a catch shot, not just for the press but also on social media beggars belief. The result is missing scales and split fins, poorer growth rates (missing scales and split fins sap growing energy), as well as poorer fishing - fish kept in nets are harder to catch in the furure - so I'm with John all the way here.

I also have little problem with hooks losing their sharpness although one of my current favourites, Drennan Silverfish Match barbless, is OK in 16s and 14s which are the sizes I use for tares and breadpunch but the 20s which I use for a tough still water lose their point quite quickly. Other hooks are usally OK all day.
 

tigger

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
9,335
Reaction score
1,692
I'll echo Marks comments regarding keep nets.
 

John Bailey

Well-known member
Feature Writer
Joined
Nov 16, 2020
Messages
251
Reaction score
416
Some interesting points there John, thanks for the write up,

Re keep nets, hope you have got a tin hat, whilst I'm not keen on them myself there are plenty here that are, may I ask how is your friend showing two fish in a photo without retaining fish in a net?

Changing the hook every six fish? Do you ever think that's a bit extreme? There's me using the same hook until it pops any maggots then I sharpen it manually, (I'll probably jinx it now by saying this) but I rarely lose a big roach ( I think I've lost only one genuine 'two' ever) and it's even rarer to lose any fish at the net, maybe this is luck but this is all despite using barbless hooks and pretty cheap but balanced gear, with a cheap but unbalanced angler :)

Also have you ever tried pellet on the float? Not sure about the Wensum but on other rivers it can be a devastating method.

Ps It's great to see the Wensum coming back for the roach, that looks a lovely stretch

Cheers
Rob
Hi Rob, bear with me please as this is the very first time I have done this sort of thing and I’m in awe of the technology. Let me say from the outset I love the idea of being able to hold these discussions. As a writer it has always been too easy to believe your words are dropping into a void and that you are writing to an empty universe. I’ll see how it goes but I’ll do my best to get into it.

Pellet? No I haven’t but I feel a trial coming on. I’ll report back of course. What a great idea..especially for laying on rather than corn or flake.

Robbie was holding two roach simply as a shoal had moved in. He caught a good one, laid it in the net while I sorted out scales and camera and got another next trot down-as so often happens after a blank day.

Keepnets. I feel this is a huge debate. A lot of my thinking has been based on the endless abuses my friends in the EA report back to me..I might not love the EA as an institution but I have always said there are lots of very good people working in it. Their feeling is that for every one angler who uses them ethically, a dozen do not. If there is an appetite for this, I’ll happily explain where I am coming from.

Changing hooks with regularity? Generally, roach are so slowly come by on the Wensum that I want to leave nothing to chance if I do hook one, especially a large one. In the past I often left a rod made up for weeks , with the same 16 there session after session. Then I wondered why I bumped a fish after 1000 trots through! Perhaps i have gone too far the other way but I’d rather be safe than sorry.

Especially as large Wensum roach are as rare and hard as they have been for 3/4 decades. It would probably be better for me to write WHERE to find river roach then HOW to catch them..something that I’d love to do if you want to read that , Rob.

So, there, I have done it, I think!! I guess I press POST!??
 

theartist

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2010
Messages
4,179
Reaction score
1,735
Location
On another planet
Thanks for the in depth reply John

Re the brace shots that wasn't a dig, I just get confused as you get people criticising keep nets on here on minute next minute they have a load of chub or barbel strewn out on the bank. Was genuinely wondering if there is better way of retaining fish. As I said not a fan of nets but have friends that use them and that debate has also been done a thousand times on here, a huge debate it is indeed but a well weathered one so good luck on that front.

Rather you than me on the hook front, I am far to lazy and dare I say it tight fisted but I bet we all got those little marginal gains born out from experience and maybe even superstition, I know I have.

I'm all for roach locations and articles as love the fish so yes by all means pen away. If you have the time have a look at the blog section on here, if you want to see how effective pellet can be for them
 

Peter Jacobs

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Messages
31,050
Reaction score
12,244
Location
In God's County: Wiltshire
" Their feeling is that for every one angler who uses them ethically, a dozen do not."

An interesting comment and yet one that I doubt anyone could possibly attest to its veracity . . . .

In my 60-odd years of angling I'd say the opposite is more accurate. A well-sited and properly pegged out keepnet is not a problem in my view.

It is strange really when ex match anglers suddenly join the ranks of those against keepnets though . . . .
 

liphook

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Messages
124
Reaction score
56
There can be little doubt that not using a keepnet is more fish friendly than using one surely? I think times have moved on from the 'show us yer bag' days. Maybe that's just me.
 

Philip

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
5,762
Reaction score
3,170
It is strange really when ex match anglers suddenly join the ranks of those against keepnets though . . . .

Glad someone else said it. I was thinking exactly the same thing.

A quick word about using landing nets for retaining fish. This is something I occasionally do for small numbers of fish for short periods of time for catch shots for things like the HDYGO thread.

If you use a framed deep pan type net the mesh is held open and there is nothing to close in or envelope round the fish like you would have with a sack or to lesser extent floating retention tubes. In addition there is no tumbling of the fish down or along anything as you would get with a long keepnet to get them out. The fish suffer no more stress or damage than when you land them in the net in the first place and imo its more fish friendly than any of the former mentioned methods for short periods of time.

Of course not retaining fish at all would be the most fish friendly way of doing it but then again if we really care that much about them then we would probably not be fishing for sport in the first place.
 
Last edited:

Mark Wintle

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2002
Messages
4,481
Reaction score
842
Location
Azide the Stour
Nothing sudden about it. I recognised the problems with keepnets in 1973 when I retained my first 20lb bag of roach in a knotted net - carnage! Soon after I had a Ray Field knotless net that was almost perfect but by the late 70s other brands copied these nets and they were usually worse, and nets got a lot worse with the monofil shake-dry nets from the early 90s onwards and there's little evidence the situation has improved since. I also started to fish stillwaters with total net bans where every fish was close on fin and scale perfect - that was 1978, and by the early 80s realised that if you retained a large catch of big roach in a net, even if damage was minimal, it was hard to catch ANY decent roach from that shoal for 3-4 weeks. Yes, you caught more on the day when using a net but caught much LESS in the longer term. This is something investigated over four decades so I think an apology is due. Retaining numerous fish in a landing net is both illegal and against all the clubs' rules that I have to comply with.
 

Peter Jacobs

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Messages
31,050
Reaction score
12,244
Location
In God's County: Wiltshire
Well sorry Mark but there is no apology coming from me . . . all too often we see match anglers with over-filled nets crammed with fish and yet once they cease to fish matches come over all righteous about keepnets.

Compared with sticking a hook into a fish and removing it from its natural habitat into the air a few hours restrained in a well sited, properly staked out keepnet is not much of a problem unless of course we in the sport want to make it one against ourselves.

Until and unless keepnets are banned by the ruling body, the EA or DEFRA then I'll use one as it suits my purpose on a given day.
 

tigger

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
9,335
Reaction score
1,692
Until and unless keepnets are banned by the ruling body, the EA or DEFRA then I'll use one as it suits my purpose on a given day.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you used a keepnet?
I must have missed your catch reports on the HDYGO thread?
 

Peter Jacobs

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Messages
31,050
Reaction score
12,244
Location
In God's County: Wiltshire
Out of curiosity, when was the last time you used a keepnet?
I must have missed your catch reports on the HDYGO thread?

Mid-July on a lake close to my home . . . . the time before that opening week on the river . . .

I wasn't aware that it was compulsory to post on that thread . . .
 
Last edited:

tigger

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
9,335
Reaction score
1,692
Mid-July on a lake close to my home . . . . the time before that opening week on the river . . .

I wasn't aware that it was compulsory to post on that thread . . .


Ok, I was only asking Peter, no need to be so defensive......
 

Philip

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
5,762
Reaction score
3,170
Retaining numerous fish in a landing net is both illegal and against all the clubs' rules that I have to comply with

Well its not where I am & its worth noting the site is called Fishing Magic not UK Coarse angling magic.

As for the apology comment I don’t know if that was directed at me but if it was then I think you need to grow a thicker skin Mark. If you make the sort of comment you made that is certain to upset people then you need to accept people will defend their corner.
 

108831

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2017
Messages
8,761
Reaction score
4,194
Well as an ex-match angler and owner of two keepnets I must say the last time I used one was two years ago(in a rarely fished club match),before that another two years,before that a fair few years,imho,especially for roach and barbel keepnets do a lot of damage if used to retain fish for more than a couple of hours,the small river that Rob,myself and several other FM members fish have some of the most beautiful roach and dace i've ever seen,every one(apart from the old lunkers)are pretty as a picture,why you ask,well the club operate no keepnets and a barbless only rulings,now though I do not like barbless hooks very much,for our smaller species in particular they do a great job in reducing lip damage,plus reducing the time on the bank...

A big thank you to John for writing this article,something I found quite shocking is his use of size 16 superspades for roach on maggot,seeing so many good roach turn away from much lighter gear...
 
Last edited:

theartist

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2010
Messages
4,179
Reaction score
1,735
Location
On another planet
Well as an ex-match angler and owner of two keepnets I must say the time I used one was two years ago(in a rarely fished club match),before that another two years,before that a fair few years,imho,especially for roach and barbel keepnets do a lot of damage if used to retain fish for more than a couple of hours,the small river that Rob,myself and several other FM members fish have some of the most beautiful roach and dace i've ever seen,every one(apart from the old lunkers)are pretty as a picture,why you ask,well the club operate no keepnets and a barbless only rulings,now though I do not like breathless hooks very much,for our smaller species in particular they do a great job in reducing lip damage,plus reducing the time on the bank...

A big thank you to John for writing this article,something I found quite shocking is his use of size 16 superspades for roach on maggot,seeing so many good roach turn away from much lighter gear...
Spot on Alan the roach and dace in that stretch are absolute stunners and it sees a few anglers as we know (understatement of the year) It really is an eye opener, how many times to you get a 1lb roach there and just look at it and go wow absolute perfection
 

theartist

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2010
Messages
4,179
Reaction score
1,735
Location
On another planet
I think there's more keepnet users dropping them than the other way round but I actually considered getting one the other year, hypocritical? Maybe but I can see the attraction. I used one a couple of times as a kid on the canal and stuffed it full of roach, the technology wasn't good back then so there were scales everywhere when I released them, it put me off them for quite a while.

Fast forward to now and I figured the tech would be better but still didn't think it was good enough having seen a match finish on the Warks Avon recently so went off the idea, but match fishing means everything to a lot of anglers and what do you do in a match without one?

Also tried the resting a fish in the net once but didn't feel right landing another fish in it, whilst that's still a grey area, are those who do that open to accusations of hypocrisy if they condemn keepnets ? After all it is still a net with other fish in it. They could argue it's not the same so that leads to where the line is drawn on fishcare. Do you criticise, advise, encourage or ignore? If we did the latter perhaps we will still be using pike gaffs but who are we to actively tell others how they can or can't fish and once again where is that damn line?

I've seen fish pictures that I cringe at yet have seen other discussions where people say holding a fish up to the camera is wrong often by folk who have got an avatar of themselves doing just that or show fish spread out on the deck, which is worse? It's down to the individual as it how they fish regarding the other debates we seem to have. When it comes to losing online friends or even those on the bank is the ethics worth it?

Maybe that is where the line really is.
 
Last edited:

108831

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2017
Messages
8,761
Reaction score
4,194
I think chub handle keepnets well,as do perch,but for pleasure fishing it is a point of contention,looking at a big catch of roach in a keepnet is awe inspiring,not so for the roach however I feel...
 
Top