Shark with hook in mouth 'would have starved to death'

geoffmaynard

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How would a stainless hook have made the situation any different other than it wouldn't have gone rusty. It didn't say that the rust made the Shark lose it's appetite.

It don't need to say it, it's pretty obvious if you think about it. If a surgeon left a metal instrument inside you after an operation, which would you prefer; a stainless steel, non rotting one or a cadmium plated, ordinary metal one? If the latter, your days are numbered. With stainless you could likely carry on your life without even knowing the metal was there. Think Barry Sheen's legs! :)
 

coelacanth

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To me the hook is absolutely huge, 14/0 maybe 16/0, and of heavy wire.
I fish for tope of similar size to the unfortunate [I]'Florence'[/I]. Sakuma Extra 7/0 tied to heavy mono or fluorocarbon (never wire) traces, chemically sharpened with whisker barbs, sometimes crushed, they are always easy to remove/unhook. [/quote]

Where you could encounter a wide range of different shark species, including very large Nurse, Tiger and Bull (plus large toothy teleosts), you'd use a hook size to suit. What might be used for sport fishing for Tope bears no relation to what would suit the waters of the Caribbean and beyond.

[quote]Yes - obviously they are media savvy, the operation costs will probably be recouped many hundred fold, but in failing to disclose the true circumstances of the capture, and their dissatisfaction with it, I feel they played into the hands of an [I]anti-angling brigade[/I] which the BBC now seems to cater to. This story only [I]sublimably[/I] so, but with several others in the last 6 months it seems to be the way the Beeb is going - perhaps worthy of its own thread?[/quote]

There's no real reason why Merlin Entertainments should care one way or the other about the impact on public perception of angling. There's no way of knowing exactly what information was originally offered by Merlin's MarComms in the press release compared to what appeared in the report, but their job is to promote the Sea Life brand, and as such they've done a good job.
I really can't see how this is especially anti-angling. The fish had a hookpoint left in it, that's a fact. That's how they are collected for the industry, another fact (which Merlin wouldn't necessarily want known). Because of licencing requirements, they had to deal with it once it was known, through high-cost veterinary intervention. As a relatively novel procedure, it was turned into a news story worth many thousands. That's pretty much it.
I'm sure the AR nutters have been posting stuff on their messages boards about this, twin hates of the zoological sector and angling must be like manna from heaven, but other than that, has anyone heard or read any anti-angling sentiments from sane people over this?

The only people playing into the hands of the anti-angling brigade are those who treat the waterside as an extension of their own refuse-strewn existences, those who think cranking out c.700lb of stressed carp from irrigation ponds is angling, those finding ever more spurious and childish reasons for not joining the Angling Trust, and irresponsible journalism within angling itself.
 

Stealph Viper

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It don't need to say it, it's pretty obvious if you think about it. If a surgeon left a metal instrument inside you after an operation, which would you prefer; a stainless steel, non rotting one or a cadmium plated, ordinary metal one? If the latter, your days are numbered. With stainless you could likely carry on your life without even knowing the metal was there. Think Barry Sheen's legs! :)

I understand that way of thinking, however, surely the idea is that the shark can shed the hook or the hook rots away allowing the shark to continue on it's way, not so that it stays inside of the shark forever and a day.
 

Stealph Viper

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So all these people that make a living out of Shark Fishing, Catch and Release, who cut the Trace so that the Hook can disolve away, don't know what they are doing or talking about??

Sorry, but i find that very hard to believe. Simple as that.
 
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It's not about belief, it's about fact.

If you needed a new hip joint would you prefer it in an alloy stainless steel or a carbon steel?

As for what the shark anglers do...well I guess they do it because they BELIEVE and convince themselves it will be OK. Shark gone...out of site out of mind.

Do you still worry about the eels you have had to return with a hook still in their belly? I guess not.
 

Stealph Viper

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I thought new hips were made from Titanium??

A hip isn't meant to wear away or what would be the point in it.

A hook that can dissolve away after several days, is designed for that purpose, your argument just makes no sense, leave the hook in there so it won't rot away. Why???

Why are we then told that if a hook is deep inside a fishes throat, to cut the line so as not to cause any unnecessary damage to the fish trying to unhook it with a discorger, when we may as well just clonk it over the head and not return it to it's habitat because it will just become infected and die anyway.
 
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coelacanth

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So all these people that make a living out of Shark Fishing, Catch and Release, who cut the Trace so that the Hook can disolve away, don't know what they are doing or talking about??
Sorry, but i find that very hard to believe. Simple as that.

Depends what the hook is made from. AFAIK hooks used in UK C&R schemes are bronze, with a (claimed) c.5 day lifespan if left in a fish. There are enough recaptures to show that when the correct hooks are used they do not have a long-term effect. Some stuff below from the Shark Trust, if the C&R schemes were bogus they wouldn't endorse them.
"Anglers are often one of the first groups of people to notice changes in the marine environment and in recent years have embraced sustainable practices such as catch and release.

The Shark Trust collaborates with responsible anglers to encourage best practice and catch recording with the long term future of elasmobranchs in mind. By recording, anglers can help the Shark Trust better understand the species found in British waters and all the variations in colour and morphology that these fish display."
 
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geoffmaynard

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A hook that can dissolve away after several days, is designed for that purpose, your argument just makes no sense, leave the hook in there so it won't rot away. Why???

A hook is not designed for any purpose other than to make the manufacturer money. To do that all it has to do is achieve it's function. Bio-degradable hooks are somewhere in the future.

Why are we then told that if a hook is deep inside a fishes throat, to cut the line so as not to cause any unnecessary damage to the fish trying to unhook it with a discorger, when we may as well just clonk it over the head and not return it to it's habitat because it will just become infected and die anyway.

Good point. Beware of received wisdom. It's a cross between wishful thinking and hope. However I have caught pike with old traces hanging out their mouths. When I pulled on those traces they came out with the hook-points and bends rotted through, so they were very old. The pike were still feeding though, because I caught them. This gives some hope that some fish DO survive deep-hooking and having the hooks left inside them. I imagine the true ratio of survivors to dead fish is pretty poor though.
 

klik2change

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Can I ask if we have definite knowledge concerning whether hooks will rot away or not? It seems to me we dont.

Well, it seems we do. Are you an authoritative source, Coelacanth? A five-day lifespan for a bronze hook of a certain type? Which type/s? Would the same apply to pike?

---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

AFAIK hooks used in UK C&R schemes
what does that mean? Is it a make?
 

mikeshaw1979

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A five-day lifespan for a bronze hook of a certain type? Which type/s? Would the same apply to pike?


I've never heard of AFAIK but perhaps this sheds some light?

Extract from: http://www.ssacn.org/wp-content/themes/cutline-3-column-split-11/papers/tope best practice.pdf

Tope Handling - A code of best practice.
Approved by the NFSA, SACN, SFSA, Shark Trust and the UK shark tagging programme....

The use of bronze finished hooks is the singularly most important factor in the release of hooked sharks, as any hook that has to be left in a fish will dissolve rapidly. MustadCodes 3406, and 79514BR or VMC 9255BZ hooks are highly recommended as they are proven to ‘dissolve’ from the mouth position within 5 days. Size 6/0 is recommended, either barb-less or with the barb crushed.


Light wire Kamasan are also specified, and provided, on many boats.
The thin bronze colour laquer isn't very durable.
I prefer Sakuma Manta hooks, as previously stated, despite a black nickel finish I believe they meet the spec.

I have used the same single 7/0s to 80 lb fluoro for occasional pike trips on Bala. With crushed whisker barbs this set-up must surely be less archaic than 2 or 3 trebles mounted on wire? The grayling or mackerel bait (frozen) hooked upwards through the snout as they would be for tope.
 
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coelacanth

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Well, it seems we do. Are you an authoritative source, Coelacanth? A five-day lifespan for a bronze hook of a certain type? Which type/s? Would the same apply to pike?

---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

what does that mean? Is it a make?

Sorry, was on a roaming profile and typing quickly while waiting for something else to finish.
AFAIK = As far as I know...
Mustad are the best known brand of these hooks, at least that I've heard about. I'm not an authoritative source, I just go to conferences where the Shark Trust are also present and ask questions about hooks etc. because of my angling interests, they also send me literature. I don't know what the lifespan would be in freshwater (it'd vary slightly according to the pH of the water), however I'm sure Mustad might be able to provide that info, and you're to be commended for considering it. I've had to remove traces from Pike and it isn't nice.
 

geoffmaynard

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"MustadCodes 3406, and 79514BR or VMC 9255BZ hooks are highly recommended as they are proven to ‘dissolve’ from the mouth position within 5 days."

Can anyone tell me where I can find the original source material proving this? Or is it just more "received wisdom"?
 
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Well, it seems we do. Are you an authoritative source, Coelacanth? A five-day lifespan for a bronze hook of a certain type? Which type/s? Would the same apply to pike?

---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------


Klik

Pike fishing is done in fresh water, whereas shark fishing is done in salt water.

It's the chlorides in the salt water that attack carbon steel very quickly. This is probably why the hooks tend to break down quickly. ON the other hand, Austenitic stainless steel can be alloyed to resist chloride attack.

If a carbon steel hook is left in a pike then the break down of the hook relies totally on oxidation. Therefore the hook will take significantly longer - weeks to months in my estimation.
 

klik2change

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It's the chlorides in the salt water that attack carbon steel very quickly. This is probably why the hooks tend to break down quickly.

Yes that makes sense. I have now read Geoff's article on stainless hooks, and I can see his point, that, while fish will, unfortunately and inevitably, be left with hooks in their mouths, at least stainless steel hooks wont be corroding and poisoning the fish at the same time.

If there were hooks that rusted away in a few days, as long as they werent giving off poisons or causing infections, they would of course be preferable to stainless.
 
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