Should barbel be stocked in stillwaters

[GrahamM]

I think it's a good thing that the experiment is being conducted because if the findings conclude that barbel can thrive in a stillwater environment then that part of the argument against stillwater barbel can be thrown out.

Then we can get on with arguing about what is really at the heart of this debate - whether we like the idea or not.

 

[Paul Williams]

Sedge,
The thing that worries me about the low oxygen content is that barbs have been present in some waters for many years now and there are claims that they have bred.
The problem is that people on both sides of the fence are making claims but noone can proove anything....hence this trial?
People keep talking of commercial waters and barbs not mixing, this in my opinion is a smokescreen, a commercial water can be a 1/2 acre 2ft muddy hole or a 100 acre clear spring fed food rich gravel pit!! as Sam points out they are run as fisheries so they are deemed commercial.
Don't get me wrong, if i had my way the pits would be stocked with roach, bream, tench, etc, but this experiment is hopefully going to prove things one way or the other......emotions are great, but they prove nothing.

 

[DAVE COOPER]

Paul has raised a valid point about different types of stillwater.

I am no scientist, but I would suspect that oxygen levels in the water have a lot to do with the ratio of surface area to water volume, water turnover, plant growth and water quality. A large open gravel pit with good weed growth will have a much better oxygen content than a 1 acre carp infested muddy hole with little or no weed growth.

I remember on Matt Hayes Total Fishing programme where his wife caught a fair sized barb from Larford lake. It appeared to fight and recover much the same as it would have in the river.

And do not rivers suffer from low oxygen levels? At time of low water in hot weather, certain river stretches become slow and de-oxygenated. Barbel survive, though stretches have been closed to fishing to protect the fish from undue and possible fatal exertion. So that argument can cut both ways.

Sounds like I'm for barbel in stillwaters, which I'm not. Just trying to clarify conflicting arguments. Not all stillwaters are oxygen depleted when compared to rivers. Sometimes in fact the reverse I believe can be true.

 

[Andrew Miller]

Having caught big barbels from stillwater, i think the main concern is not weather they can trive or not, as that they are being easily caught by inexperienced anglers, who do not give the fish the correct after care that anglers seems to do on the river. Some of the fish (including carp etc as well) are a sorry sight indeed.
Windy

 

[Kevan Farmer]

As far as I am aware there is no scientific proof that barbel have ever bred in stillwater. They do need a constant good flow of oxygenated water over fertilised eggs. This flow cannot be assured even in a stillwater with an underwater stream. for this reason I honestly do not believe that barbel should be stocked into stillwaters. It is simply totally alien to the species. I also honestly don't think we will ever see a 'true' record barbel taken from a stillwater. As for barbel being the in species....YES!!!!! And take a look at how many syndicates are now acquiring banks of river. That really annoys me. I dread the day when my favourite species become the in thing - perch. By the way, landed a pb the other day 3lb.

 

[Paul Williams]

Kevan,
With all due respect the whole of this debate has been based on "as far as i know" it is time for facts not theory.
Congrats on your Perch mate, a truelly fantastic fish.

 

[Kevan Farmer]

Thanks Paul the perch was stunning, caught on a silver fish shaped spoon I brought back from Australia. Anyway, back to the thread before somebody complains. I think the problem is that there hasn't really been that much scientific study. Or has there? I cannot say for definite but I seem to recall seeing some sort of paper published somewhere stating that barbel cannot breed in stillwater. This is why I put it the way I did. I cannot honestly put my hand on my heart and state it as fact because I cannot give references to it. Perhaps members of The Barbel Society know of it? This very issue was debated a few months ago on the Internet Angling Club Coarse list. The experiences of those that took part were quite unanimously that barbel do not have a very good condition when kept in stillwaters. Maybe others have different experiences? Again I do not speak from personal knowledge as I have only ever caught barbel from the Severn. I do know of one local pool - with an underwater current - that holds barbel. I have never fished it for one reason or another. I can say that barbel catches from the pool are very, very rare.

 

[Stewart Bloor]

In the Pilgrim's Progress article which spawned this debate, I wrote from a layman's perspective, but still included in the article facts, ie the barbel is a lithophilous species, reference to the 38 barbus species in Europe, the 60% difference between tench and barbel as far as lethal oxygen content is concerned etc.
But, more importantly as far as the thread of this mail is concerned, I made reference in the article to another that had been recently published in the Barbel Society magazine by Dr Paul Garner. It is littered with scientific facts, all backed up with references.
I would recommend (as I did in the article) anyone that doubts the authenticity of the statement that barbel should be in stillwaters to get hold of a copy. In fact, if anyone is interested contact me.
Taking a totally open view on the subject, (which I did in the first place, and is the reason I arrived at the conclusion I did) it is clear that barbel do not belong in stillwaters. I know there are grey areas, there will be in any topic for debate. But the overwhelming opinion of people like (Drs) Paul Garner and Andy Orme is that barbel do not belong in stillwaters.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Orfe and Ide dont belong in Britain...nor do carp come to think of it!...Man will ALWAYS interfer with nature. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

The obvious answer is that Barbel do not belong in stillwaters, but there is little to stop them being stocked IF the water conditions alow it.

Rainbow trout do not breed in British stillwaters, and only last about 4 years before dying, and need LARGE amounts of oxygen, but they survive and are totally excepted in still waters.

Is it a more a question of Barbel surviving or thriving in stillwater.

 

[Ron Clay]

Rob,

You are not quite right in saying that rainbow trout do not breed in British Waters. The Rivers Dove and Lathkill in Derbyshire have fair populations of wild bred rainbows. I addition it has been noticed that rainbows can breed in Stillwater under certain conditions.

 

[Stewart Bloor]

I think rainbow also breed in the Derbyshire Derwent...but back to the point. Do we want barbel to become like rainbow trout, that are stocked for the table anyway? The scenario of constant barbel being re-stocked to replace the ones that have died, is not a thought that is very pleasant.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Ron ....Bingo!!!!...My point precisly...Under CERTAIN conditions, even a Rainbow can breed in a stillwater!!!! (Notice I did stay stillwater..I have caught many wild rainbows from the Tay etc in scotland) There are exceptions in every rule and to say Barbel cannot spawn in stillwaters is just not true!!! It may need exceptional circumstances, but it may just happen.

Stewart, The Rainbow bashers do it all the time!! What is the real difference at the end of the day? They stock with Rainbows that either die out over a few years, or get knocked on the head. Whats the difference in stocking Barbel every few years?

Let me make it clear however, I am not in favour of stillwater stocking with Barbel, I am just trying to show the elitist attitude that is surfacing amongst "some" of you...and I dont mean that in a bad way either. I am pleased there are people defending the poor BArbel.

 

[Ron Clay]

In South Africa, they artificially breed the Smallmouth Yellowfish and stock it mainly into huge man-made impoundments and reservoirs. The Small Mouth Yellow by the way is a true river species, needs fast flowing water over gravel to spawn and takes 6 to 8 years to reach sexual maturity.

In the large stillwaters these fish reach huge weights and when hooked fight incredibly well. They are also a most desirable species. Many people in SA even regard them as a game species because they take flys both dry and wet so well.

The mani future for this fish in SA is in large stillwaters. Carp have caused their demise in many of SAs rivers. Such a shame!

 

[Stewart Bloor]

Rob, it's not elitist. There is nothing stopping other species groups from defending their species. Just because barbel anglers are taking the time and trouble to fight their corner, its unfair to use the term elitist, just because some anglers have a particular passion for their chosen species.

 

[Ron Clay]

Stewart, I would love to beleive that all people who prefer to fish for one species or one particular branch of the sport, were not elitist in their attutudes. In my life I have known salmon men who run down trout men, trout men who run down coarse fishahs, carp anglers who curse bream and call tench green snots. Match anglers who slag off pleasure anglers, specimen hunters who call match anglers - Noddys, and sea anglers who reckon all freshwater anglers are mad.

In my angling life I have tried to do a bit of all kinds of angling, so that I can get an idea of the other guys viewpoint.

From this I will conclude that you will always get some sort of elitism in angling

 

[Rob Brownfield]

Sorry Stewart, i have disagree with u, although that does not mean that I do not appreciate your views.

If the Barbel were not "the fish" to fish for just now, this discussion thread would not be 6 pages long. I can recall when Barbel were first found in the Wye. There were calls from all sides to wipe them out. How things have changed these days.

The Barbel is truely a magnificent fish, and I would love to see more of them around, and i am sure that the record will go to a rather large, fat barbel that has fed on boillies in some lake in southern britain. A sad, but almost enevitable situation.

I wish people like Trefor West and Dave Plummer had made comment here as they were fishing for big barbel long before they were popular, and they must have seen some HUGE changes in attitude to the Barbel.

 

[Ron Clay]

Of course barbel are a magnificent fish.

However we must keep records in perspective. A record is purely a biological fact and should never be regarded as a great feat of angling. Similarly a specimen fish is not necessarily a big fish.

Which is a better specimen of a female human - Elizabeth Hurley or Hattie Jacqes?

 

[Paul Williams]

Ron,
It would hsve to be Liz, cos Hattie is deaceased........lol.

 

[Rob Brownfield]

I agree with the specimen fish bit...My best specimen Carp was a stalked 11 pounder from a small pond in the far north of Scotland