Tying spade end hooks and hooklengths,or the inability to.

[no-one in particular]

It is? Then how have I and countless others used spade ends without problem for decades? Why so reluctant to accept what people tell you and what is so obviously, looking at the hooks sold, their use by highly successful anglers etc etc, the case?

Are there any other dangers we should be looking out for? Perhaps beavers?

I am only reluctant because it goes against every rational logical thought I have when I look at a spade end. And I have explained that quite a few times now and the reason I did that is because everyone thinks I was being irrational which was irrational.

 

[mikench]

Are there any other dangers we should be looking out for? Perhaps beavers?

The Spanish Inquisition perhaps. This thread is beginning to remind me of Donald Rumsfeld and the discussion on known unknowns, unknown unknowns and the unknowns we know but don't know we know. Yes I am losing the plot and spade end hooks are at fault.

 

[108831]

Anyway,going back to the topic it seems there are as many people not confident tying spade ends as those who are,so you are not alone Mike....

 

[sam vimes]

I don’t dispute that eyed do not give as good a presentation as spade nor that you have never had a problem with them breaking. Nor re Whitty’s post that they catch lots of very large fish. What I dispute is that it never ever happens, could never happen, its impossible that it would happen and the spade is not a danger to the line. For me it’s just there in front of my eyes when I look at a spade end, there is a bloody relative large spiky sharp bit of metal right next to line and a potential abrasion point and/or snap off. I am just surprised no one thinks of this because it’s so obvious to me since I first started fishing. And although it might only happen once in a thousand sessions, it could happen and likely to happen at the worst moment. I don’t want that risk; I just don’t have that risk with eyed. I don’t use hooks less than a 16 and I get the eye is more of a problem when you get smaller, the eye becomes larger in relation to the hook but I never use smaller than a 16 and I don’t mind the presentation.

I'd typed out a big long response and suffered a brain fart and lost it.
Honestly, I really don't care what you end up using. All I was doing was responding to your assertions that people only use spades due to convention or dogma. I care nothing for either. I use whatever works out best for me based on actually using it/them. If I'd had any hint of trouble with spades, I wouldn't be using them.

 

[Mark Wintle]

I can see that lack of confidence in spade ends might be a factor. Back when I started tying hooks I had loads of failures and I always retied a hook if the end of the line was curley or came off the hook at the wrong angle. But in 50 years of fishing I doubt I've had 1% of the fish I've caught on eyed hooks and in total I've had approaching 200,000. For roach fishing I can't think of any situation where a spade-end isn't superior to eyed. Howard Humphrey did teach me to tie spade ends by hand but I can seem to master it. I've watched Ivan tying by hand as well on the bank.

Back in the late 70s/early 80s Colin Dyson who was joint editor of Coarse Angler magazine experimented with dubbing hooks using silk whipping which gives a superior finish to spade ends but more trouble. He reckoned more bites hit and better presentation. In essence he removed the spade, tied a half hitch in the end of the line then after a dab of superglue whipped on the hook with fine silk. Back in the 60s the first hooks I ever used were always tied like this. I'll see if I can find the article in a minute.

 

[steve2]

I must admit that when I tied my own hooks I never bothered to check which way the line came off the hook. I just put bait on the hook and went fishing if there was a difference I never noticed any.
Unlike Mark I would say the majority of my fish have been caught using eyed hooks simply because that is what I use most of the time. Like others use spade ends and catch all their fish on them.
I also remember buying hooks with no eye or spade and gluing or use varnish to help hold them once tied.
Happy Days.

 

[no-one in particular]

I can see that lack of confidence in spade ends might be a factor. Back when I started tying hooks I had loads of failures and I always retied a hook if the end of the line was curley or came off the hook at the wrong angle. But in 50 years of fishing I doubt I've had 1% of the fish I've caught on eyed hooks and in total I've had approaching 200,000. For roach fishing I can't think of any situation where a spade-end isn't superior to eyed. Howard Humphrey did teach me to tie spade ends by hand but I can seem to master it. I've watched Ivan tying by hand as well on the bank.

Back in the late 70s/early 80s Colin Dyson who was joint editor of Coarse Angler magazine experimented with dubbing hooks using silk whipping which gives a superior finish to spade ends but more trouble. He reckoned more bites hit and better presentation. In essence he removed the spade, tied a half hitch in the end of the line then after a dab of superglue whipped on the hook with fine silk. Back in the 60s the first hooks I ever used were always tied like this. I'll see if I can find the article in a minute.

I was wondering about glued back in an earlier post as well as a modified spade. I must have first used them in the 60's and the design has not changed in all that time and I am guessing not for a long time before that. I would favour a modified spade, all you need is a smooth bump that the knot could not pass over, the spade seems a bit of an overkill to me.

 

[bracket]

Back in the late 70s/early 80s Colin Dyson who was joint editor of Coarse Angler magazine experimented with dubbing hooks using silk whipping which gives a superior finish to spade ends but more trouble. He reckoned more bites hit and better presentation. In essence he removed the spade, tied a half hitch in the end of the line then after a dab of superglue whipped on the hook with fine silk. Back in the 60s the first hooks I ever used were always tied like this. I'll see if I can find the article in a minute.

Mark. I would like to read that. In the mid fifties Jim Sharp, a noted Nottingham matchman in his day, gave me a demo on how to whip a straight hook with silk. The hooks he used were manufacture with a straight shank, not doctored spade ends. I don't' remember what they were called but the term "dubbed" does ring a bell somewhere. Not having the luxury of super glue, Jim sealed the hook whippings with cellulose dope, something I have done ever since. I first began fishing with rod and line in 1950. That is fishing in earnest, as opposed to it being an alternative activity to counting the number of dead dogs in Nottingham Canal. In those days I would use pre tied gilt hooks on cat gut, tied as described above. I don't know if spade end hooks were available then. If so I was never aware of them. I know I was using, and tying spade ends, when I fished my first Adult match aged 14. That was in 1955, and they were in common use then, but I have no idea when they were first introduced on to the market. Do you have any references in your Data Bank? Pete.

 

[Mark Wintle]

Mark. I would like to read that. In the mid fifties Jim Sharp, a noted Nottingham matchman in his day, gave me a demo on how to whip a straight hook with silk. The hooks he used were manufacture with a straight shank, not doctored spade ends. I don't' remember what they were called but the term "dubbed" does ring a bell somewhere. Not having the luxury of super glue, Jim sealed the hook whippings with cellulose dope, something I have done ever since. I first began fishing with rod and line in 1950. That is fishing in earnest, as opposed to it being an alternative activity to counting the number of dead dogs in Nottingham Canal. In those days I would use pre tied gilt hooks on cat gut, tied as described above. I don't know if spade end hooks were available then. If so I was never aware of them. I know I was using, and tying spade ends, when I fished my first Adult match aged 14. That was in 1955, and they were in common use then, but I have no idea when they were first introduced on to the market. Do you have any references in your Data Bank? Pete.

You have a pm re the article.

 

[Mark Wintle]

It seems that spade ends increased in popularity quickly after WW2 as nylon came into use. I suspect gut doesn't like the spade end knots and silk whipping is better. The reference to this I have is a 1950 match fishing book.

 

[Molehill]

I recall in my carp fishing days (a long time ago and very amateur), taking low water salmon hooks, cutting down the shank and filing it at an angle, then putting a blob of solder on the end and trying them as spades. Pretty sure it was jack Hilton who came up with it?

But back to spades, tying them with a "gadget" does require practice and checking each tying - for us amateurs- they are not all perfect but practice makes near perfect. That's all really, practice and check.

 

[108831]

One add on,tying spades on too thick a line for said spade causes failure(obviously),the line slips off of the spade,i have this problem with Drennan wide gape 20's,on the Ivel i like to use a 5.5lb(0.16mm) Silstar match team hooklength,due the the possibility of a barbel(vague these days),an 18 is great,the 20 on the other hand iffy,a Drennan carbon chub 20 stays put no problem,cant understand why a forged hook has such a small spade. Anyway,this is a big factor i spade use for specimen fish,you would need a spade the size of a spade to hold say 0.30mm - 10/12lb b.s.

 

[Richox12]

........cant understand why a forged hook has such a small spade.

Probably because the forging is on the bend of the hook at 90 degrees to the spade. And the spade is pro-rata to the wire thickness. So thicker wire = more to flatten.

 

[mikench]

I didn't take to the Drennan and the Match man I had had been crushed under a car tyre so I bought a new one. It's better but will need practice which I may be incapable of.

View attachment 7958

 

[nottskev]

That looks pretty decent, Mike. As people have said, it soon becomes second nature. Beware of that spade though - it will have your arm off, if you're not struck by lightning first

 

[mikench]

Thanks Kev. I've just tied about 6 hooklength with some superspades and a couple more Kaizen hooks. They look about the same . I doubt I could do it on the bank.

 

[nottskev]

Thanks Kev. I've just tied about 6 hooklength with some superspades and a couple more Kaizen hooks. They look about the same . I doubt I could do it on the bank.

But could you do it on a wet Wednesday night in Stoke? No reason why you won't be tying them on the bank in a bit. And come to think of it, even Stoke can't do it on a wet etc these days.

I notice you're practising on Superspades. I've not used them for years now, so I'm wondering what you use them for. (While guessing they might be a recommend from a certain river angler who catches a lot of chub and barbel). I would think they're a slightly difficult hook to practise on, as they have, as I remember, if not a short shank, a shortish medium shank, and that doesn't leave you a lot to whip the turns on when you have the hook clamped. Many lighter hooks have relatively longer shanks, and might well prove a bit easier to work with.

 

[mikench]

You guessed right. The masters favourite hook. I just happened to have a pack in size 14 to practice on.

 

[Keith M]

I

Thanks Kev. I've just tied about 6 hooklength with some superspades and a couple more Kaizen hooks. They look about the same . I doubt I could do it on the bank.

You might be surprised at how easy it is to tie a spade end hook using a hook tyer when you’re on the bank; I used to occasionally tie spades on the bank when I was short of ready tied hooks, and it was a doddle as the slight tension placed on the line from the slightly bent rod tip made using the Matchman hook tyer a lot easier. It was like having an extra hand.

Keith

 

[nottskev]

I

You might be surprised at how easy it is to tie a spade end hook using a hook tyer when you’re on the bank; I used to occasionally tie spades on the bank when I was short of ready tied hooks, and it was a doddle as the slight tension placed on the line from the slightly bent rod tip made using the Matchman hook tyer a lot easier. It was like having an extra hand.

Keith

Absolutely. For that reason, I'd much rather tie hooks on on the bank. Doing it at a desk or bench involves the rigmarole of putting weights on the spool or clamping it somehow, and the longer line is easier to tension just nicely. Similarly, I prefer to tie pole rigs sitting on my box in the garden with the line attached to a top kit. Much easier to tension it to attach shot, tie hooks etc. Gets the odd sarcastic question from passers by, but small price to pay.