We Know Nowt!

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Lewis Levitt

Guest
I have read this with great interest I am one of the very old oldies and I dont know about anglers new to the sport being confused when I read some of the articlesin todays fishing magazines I am more confused than they are. Iread what the (EXPERTS) say try some of the tips if they are good O.K. if they dont appeal back to what I've always used its really everyone to his own
 
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disco dan

Guest
I have always gone by "if its not broke dont fix it" i have tryed all kinds of wonder baits and flavours and rigs and i just keep going back to the old favorites and techincs and my results are not that bad. so i will stay the the methods i no work.
 
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Dave Beal

Guest
If you are happy with the way you fish,
happy with your results,
then who really cares who is wrong and who is right?
The way forwards is the way backwards.
I listen to other people and what they use and do, and then combine it, if I want to with the way I do things, most of the time it works better than your old way and better than there way.
Dave.
 
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Bill Cox

Guest
Graham---Surely the fish make up in all waters is as the human make up in any given city,namely diverse.What one man eats for his tea is not always to the liking of his nieghbour,and the key words are "not always"What you describe is nothing more then different fish reacting to different food at different times.Some fish may switch on to something due to unknown triggers within their bodies others may not have these triggers,still others may be more succeptable to temperature change.All Carp for example look more or less the same outside but are as different inside and in their genetic make up as you and I surely are.The thing to be thankful for is this very diversity as this is what makes fishing so challenging and enjoyable.
 

GrahamM

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Bill, I don't think you're right about fish being like humans in that they're individuals with diverse tastes. That is bestowing on them a degree of intelligence and social behaviour brought about by individual family upbringing. And their genetic makeup within a species IS the same.

The 'tastes' of individual fish within the same water will be the same and will revolve around whatever has been made available to them throughout their lifespan. This includes both natural food and whatever anglers have been giving to them.

Fish are exceptionally simple creatures that eat when they're hungry, and eat whatever is readily available. Hence the success of prebaiting. They are not like human individuals who look at a menu or look in a pantry and then choose something to their liking.

It isn't case of a group of fish coming across a baited spot where several different baits are on offer, and one thinking, "Oh great, I'll have the fluorescent pop-up today on the bolt rig." And another thinking, "Nah, it's the over-flavoured bottom bait on a running lead for me." (Because, don't forget, what I wrote was about the presentation of those baits as well as the makeup of them).

It's a simple case of some fish will be hungrier than others and will throw caution to the winds. Some fish are bigger than others, and may have been caught more often, and have more caution to start with. Some may have been caught most on bottom baits of a certain flavour and instinctively know they mean danger, and so on. Which is what you said with "What you describe is nothing more than different fish reacting to different food at different times." But not for the reasons you said.

I don't believe it is anything to do with different fish having a liking for different foods. Not in the same fishery anyhow.

Fish are definitely not like humans when it comes to food. They don't have the same choice and they don't make a choice before eating. They eat whatever natural food is in abundance at the time, and whatever bait is readily available, providing they are not frightened off it due to associating it with a recent uncomfortable experience, ie, being hooked.

And even then, if they're hungry enough, they will have a go at it, with caution, hence the need for anglers to modify bait and bait presentation from time to time.

Which brings us full circle to the diverse approach by different anglers fishing the same water!
 
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Ron Clay

Guest
Of all the species I have fished for, the roach, especially the big ones in rivers are the most canny of the lot. Get your presentation wrong and you catch nothing.

For example I was stick floating a stretch of local river recently and spent 3 hours or so with nothing to show. My tackle was rigged in the classic stick float patter - according to all the books and top match anglers.

Then my friend John came along and instead of giving me any advice, he gave me one of his rigs which was on a winder.

First trot down and bingo. I caught 8 roach on 8 trots, the best over a pound.

There didn't seem to be much in the way of difference to my own rig, yet it worked much better. The depth setting were identical.

I have since learned that with stick float rigs the position of the final shot is vital.

Have any of you also found this?
 
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Jon Moores

Guest
I'd agree with Graham's view that fish are just simple creatures with an instinct for caution (self preservation)and an instinct to eat and the balance between the two at any given time affects our chances of success. However "their genetic makeup within a species IS the same" isn't correct. The most visible example being carp in which the genetic differences between individuals have been selectively bred to give the modern mirrors and leathers. Other fish will have some differences and may influence, for example, the different ultimate size of individual specimens.
 

GrahamM

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Quite right Jon. Perhaps I should have made it clear that I meant that there is no genetic difference in their eating habits.
 
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Rodney Wrestt

Guest
Ron,
Yes, I've found the positioning of the last shot on the rig is very impotant as it defines how far the bait will flutter off the bottom when running through. Although this can be changed by holding back thus lifting the bait higher, if you let the float go through at the pace of the current the bait can be wavering over the fishes heads so I always use some number 10 shot on the last foot of line and then I can put them closer together to keep the bait as near the deck as possible or spread them to let it lift more.

Oh and "Glugged hookbaits" are baits left in a liquid dip to increase the leakage of flavour.


I read something a while ago that made me look at rigs and think. I think it was Dr Paul Gardner who wrote an article, in which he said that when fish are feeding they expect to feel resistance because in their daily search for food they lift up and blow out gravel, force their way through weeds, push their heads into all sorts of debris and pull insects etc from plants. I instantly knew what he was talking about as the fish in my aquarium have totaly destroyed plants and created small gravel bars from the once smooth substrait in the bottom of the tank in their search for items of food they have missed at feeding time.
 
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Bill Cox

Guest
Graham
I did not for a minute mean that fish are capable of reasoned thought as i am well aware that they do not have the brain capacity,but I still maintain that there are differences between individual fish,I remember reading on several occasions in the angling press of fish that are only ever caught on certain flavour or types of bait,nothing else would pull them away from natural food,this must surely be the fish showing a preference.why they show this preference I don't know ,we are back to triggers again somthing in that bait above others triggers those fish to feed.The fact that not all fish have the same triggers must point to some degree of individuality.
 
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Clive Evans

Guest
Ron, yes roach can be finicky at times. And yet...I've had my presentation completely ''wrong'' when floating a large piece of bread for carp with a bare hook sticking out of it, and caught many a large roach and rudd, on a size 6 at that.
It seems that they are determined to get that bread before Mr Carp finds it, and be damned to the consequences. Hunger, greed, virgin fish. Who knows why? I certainly dont!
Seems to me that Graham is right. We cannot presume to know what the fish will do. But that wont stop us from bringing ingenuity and innovation to the problem, will it.
 
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john conway

Guest
Yup! Graham I agree, fish are very simple animals in comparison to humans, but that doesn’t mean they are easy to catch and crediting them with even some limited human behaviour is only confusing the problem regarding there capture.
 
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Wendy Perry

Guest
Well first of all hi everyone it's good to be back my computer decided to blow up on me and so i was lost without FishingMagic what a relief to be back in the land of fishing .

Graham i enjoyed the story it was really intresting ...

At the weekend i went on a fish in with 17 others from another web site which was at Izac Waltons and it was fantastic by the way but as the story states the fish are very clever i blanked all day (apart from when i dropped my mobile phone in the lake and when i tried to get it out with landing net i got 4 roach and 1 perch lol just my luck ) but other people were catching all day long and i wasn't doing anything different than them .If them fish had any form of human in them they would have felt sorry for me being so sad at losing my mobile and jumped on my hook and not Peter Mortons lol

wend
 
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derek lovell

Guest
Oh to be the Grand Visier who knows all the blooming answers. At the time you need the answer the most thats when you will choose the wrong one (but only for the moment, tomorrow's another day).Always opt primarily for what your own experience guides you toward then & only when results decline, deviate try something diffrent.Ultimately there is no right or wrong but there is always instinct,experience,knowledge & experimentation
 

GrahamM

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Bill, how was it proved that fish (in the same water) are showing a preference for a certain bait? I can understand that some poor quality baits are being refused (in a fishery where the fish have an abundance of food) but other that I'm not sure what you mean.

Wendy, good to see you back, even if you have been mixing with the 'opposition'!
 

Stuart Dennis

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I’ve sat back and watched this thread with a keen eye based on making my own boilies of late. Very interesting and very informative so thanks to all contributors, as once again my mind is racing! I have a couple of points (as usual) so here goes. Red ones, green ones, some as big as your nose! There are far too many boilie baits in different sizes, flavours and colours available on the market today. Trying to choose the right bait for the right venue could be deemed a nightmare for the beginner and in fact the experienced angler too. I couldn’t say that I’ve experimented enough with my own baits yet to say what’s right and what’s wrong, but I’ve certainly seen some interesting results of late. I’ll explain. My baits are heavy in substance, mustard in colour and extremely strong in flavour, they are of a birdseed base mix and of a sweet smell. As far as I know they are quite unique.

My uncle was fishing at Par Lake in Essex, I popped over to see how he was doing and was informed he hadn’t had a take since beginning his session some six hours previously. I asked him and his fishing partner to give my baits a try. They had six rods out and two of these carried my bait. The onsite bailiff was fishing and had been field testing the new NRG baits for months, piling them in by the sack full every other day or so. The NRG baits would have been classed as safe baits due to the amount put in and the fact that the bailiff had only just started to use them on the hook. Eight fish came out within 24 hours and only one to the NRG. NRG are a very good bait, but it certainly wasn’t the flavour of the day, why was that? Location? – NO as all fish were in the same area ranging some eighty yards and crashing like good-uns. Rigs? – No all used pretty much the same, colour? -- Possibly. Flavouring – definitely! (imho).

Same again when fishing with Carp Angler and Cakey, three fish hooked on my baits with hardly any other runs on the lake. These baits had never been used on the venue before! Am I a better angler than Rik and Cakey when it comes to carp fishing? – definitely not, these guys are pro’s and work far harder than I ever could. Is it luck? - I don’t think so, was it swim location? Don’t think so as we were all lined up together.
This say’s many things to me, maybe I’ve cracked a ‘super bait’ I don’t know, but what this does tell me is that all the articles I read about ‘find out what’s being used on a venue and follow suit’ is not adding up to me. A brand new bait, never been used before on virgin waters is producing, there’s not loads and loads going out, in fact I was only putting 6-10 per hook bait. This has happened on quite a few occasions of late and across many varied venues too.

I can’t speak for others and carp fishing is relatively new to me, but, I over load my baits with flavour, probably against the advice given in magazines, but it’s getting me results in situations where others are blanking (and I don’t mean Carp Angler and Cakey before you start).

My advice to other new-comers, is make your own, personalise them to suit YOU, go against the norm and stick with them. New venues will take never before introduced baits, that’s A FACT! Steer clear of advice given to sell magazines and stick with your own theories and of course the help of experts on here!
 
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Jim Crosskey

Guest
Here's a thought for all you boilie makers - has anyone tried varying the type of egg you use? I'm not a carp-a-holic myself, and I've never made a boilie, but reading the press I do know that eggs go in there as a binder. Now, my point is this - if you make two plates of scrambled eggs to exactly the same "recipie" (i.e. cooked for the same ammount of time, same quantity of egg, pepper, salt, milk etc etc), and you make one from intensively produced factory-eggs (say tesco's "econonmy"), and the other from the same amount of free range farm eggs laid that morning, the difference between the taste is staggering - if you don't believe me, just get some eggs from your local farm or farmer's market.

Is it possible that carp could respond to this too? And there's all sorts of other eggs out there too...goose, ostrich...quail eggs anybody?

Could this be the bait find of the century??? ;o)
 
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Clive Evans

Guest
Good point Jim,
definitely food for thought.
Now if Cormorant eggs turned up trumps , we could perhaps kill two birds with one boilie,so to speak !!
 
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Mark St Jefferson

Guest
Okay well here's another spanner for the works.

I have a fairly large fish tank at home, which houses Mirrors, Ghosties, Green & Gold Tench, Gudgeon and Bitterlings, and being an angler I naturaly can't resist dropping baits in now and then, if only to see what effect it has. (BTW on fish not being selective, my gudgeon don't like maggots?!? go figure that one???)

A few things I have noticed, apart from the things like a ball of groundbait sunk to the bottom doesn't attract as such, rather it keeps fish there if other particles or foods are dropped in above it. Also there fish seem to put out some kind of feeding frenzy signal when they happen uppon a bunch of freebies, ten seconds later and every fish in the tank can be routing out one small section.

But here's one that realy threw me: We have one of those laser pointer pens (you know the ones that cast a red dot on the wall) and the other night I was winding the cats up with it when it went across the fish tank. The Tench went nuts chasing it, but the carp seemed very nervous of it (almost scared), whereas the bitterling and gudgeon either couldn't see it or didn't care one way or the other.

Now this bright red point of light has no scent or taste, and the effect has been the same in brightly lit, dark and even cloudy water, also these fish have never been in a danger situation, we've had them since they were tiddlers, and coming from aquatic sources, I doubt if any of them from a few generations have been in a wild, able to be preyed upon situation.

So what makes the tench scream after it and makes the carp swim away?

Now how do I simulate laser pointer onto my hook the next time I hit a tench water ???? ;-)
 
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