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Blunderer

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Bob
In your original post you asked for evidence. Now you have it. It can never be proof but it is as close as you will get. I have seen these fish too and have no doubts whatsover of their origin. And Mike's word is good enough for me with reference to witnessing the spawning.
For those of you who dont know, he is the holder of the Golden Orfe record - from Lymmvale.
 

Baz

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How many times in the same year was the Golden Orfe record beaten from this same water?
Not my kind of fishing, but if that's what pulls your string , so be it. The same as barbel in stillwaters, springfed or not, a big no no.
 
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EC

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'And if a couple of isolated reports from one water is sufficient to justify the whole raft of legal and illegal stockings to date and in the future then it equates to me scoring a hole in one next week and believing that I can go round Wentworth in 18 shots.'

I take this to mean that an isolated report is (might be) used to justify stocking in stillwaters legally or otherwise all on the basis of a 'one off'.
 
E

EC

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I just don't think anyone is going to use this 'one off' as the basis for justification of illegal stocking!

Have I read it wrong?

No worries, either way!
 

Bob Roberts

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No Eddie, I didn't mean a one-off of anything justifies illegal stockings.

The 'justify' refered to past tense illegal happenings not future ones.

See where you're coming from though.

Can we not get over the stillwater barbel issue by getting carp to wear masks. That way you could catch marlin and great whites without all that hassle and expense.

Or perhaps we could paint them so they look like other species. And no Barny, you can't hang them up to dry before returning them...
 

Simon K

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What sort of "scientific evidence" are you hoping for Bob? Underwater Video surveillance? Matching DNA from fry and parents? Or is this a delaying tactic???!

If it's not Lymnvale, then you've got ANOTHER water to "worry" about! For an animal that supposedly can't breed or thrive in still water, there suddenly seems to be an awful lot of them about!

And why cloud the issue with "Fish Migrations" in "half acre puddles"? This has no relevance to the case in point, as reported by Barrie & present company. (and Nev's piece).
I'm sure the fish are quite relieved at only having to travel a few yards to the spawning ground! Think of all the energy saved and less time needed to recover post-spawning. ;-)
 

Bob Roberts

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Simon, there are not an awful lot of them about. And that's the difference between hearsay and evidence.

A lot of people in America have seen space ships and been abducted by aliens. lots of witness statements and TV shows but precious little evidence.

Delaying tactic for what? You've lost me there.

Cloud is an apt term when describing the average overstocked carp puddle. However I can point you to evidence where barbel happily migrate 10K per day in the run-up to spawning, where barbel spend parts of their lives in two different rivers and where in unobstructed rivers in Europe they ahve swum 200K.

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a sound reason why we actually need barbel in stillwaters. "Want sum" is not an answer.

I'd rather like a Mercedes estate but I'm not going to go out and steal one to put in my garage just because I want one without all the hassle of working hard to pay for one.
 
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Wolfman Woody

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To whoever, I thought the article by Nev Fickling was interesting, all of it no matter late in the day I read it.

My point "What's the point?" refers to the fact that we have some very interesting rivers containing barbel. Every angler can find access to a decent barbel swim should they wish to sample barbel fishing. "What's the point?" therefore of stocking them into stillwaters when rivers are just as handy.

I can see that agrument, and I can also see the argument that barbel could well thrive and breed in certain stillwaters and that we shoudln't close our minds off to any possibilities. But again, why? What is the point?

I've said before, I'd like to see every carp removed from the Thames and slung (pardon the term) into the nearest enclosed gravel pit (same with tench). 'Horses for courses' comes to mind.

For what it matters, I was looking at our Jubilee River yesterday with just 1.9 millions gallons of water running through per day at the moment. Yes, it is in effect a stillwater and yet there could be lots of barbel in it. We might find out on Sunday when a match takes place.

I suppose to sum up, I'm not adverse to people stocking barbel into reasonably suitable stillwaters, but then I come back to my point and ask "why would you want to?" Is this what Bob Roberts is saying too.

or am I being a thickophant?
 
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Wolfman Woody

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Just for the record -

I am against all illegal stockings and fish thefts wherever they are from.
 

Bob Roberts

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Hasn't it come to something in this oh-so-bloody politically correct world where we have to keep stating that we are against illegal stockings.

That's not a pop at Woody, I had to make the same statement earlier in the thread, too.

Do you remember when being PC meant giving up your seat to ladies on buses? These days you get a funny look or a lecture off some right wing, one-legged, black lesbian who desperately wants to be loved.

Anyway, enough of that, I have no issue with species that have free access to move between still and moving water of their own volition. Carp are an alien species in this country but they are equally at home and eminently suited to thriving in rivers.

I once watched carp trying to leap an 8 foot weir in Canada, just like salmon. They breed successfully in both environments, too.

Where connecting gravel pits and marinas allow, they have a choice. The majority of carp appear to favour river life, as do barbel.

Chub and bream drift happily between the two environments but you seldom hear of barbel being caught from them. Why is that I wonder?
 
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Wolfman Woody

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My real desire to get the carp out of the river, Bob, is to make room for the other species. A large carp eats perhaps as much as a shoal of roach does. I honestly believe they are forcing out other species of river fish.

I would honestly swap all the bream in one carp lake for all the carp in the nearby river. But I'm a creep, I'm a weirdo.
What the hell am I doing here?
I don't belong here.
 
B

Bob Hornegold

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Well there we have it ?

Man has used nature for its own ends since Man stared FARMING.

So although Carp were originally a RIVER fish they have been bred to survive in Still water.

Do the Carp Society want all Carp put Back into Rivers ?

Is it Not a Simple matter to grasp, that Match and Pleasure anglers want the convience of fishing small commercial venues ?

Barbel were stocked into still commercial waters by the E A to add some varity and some winter sport.

I know it does not fit in with the B S or the Protectors of the Barbel Species, but that is the simple truth.

1400 B S member may well influence a few like minded anglers, but it certainly will not interest the vast majority of the 2 million odd anglers in this country.

You wanted a Why, the pleasure of catching a different species, without the effort of going to a River.

And Yes they can Breed ( Neville and Barry's posts)and No I do not want to see them transfered from Rivers or illegally transfered from Rivers, and Yes I agree with the E A stocking Still Waters with Small Still Water Bred Barbel, and No I dont want to fish for them, and Yes as long as they have been stocked legally I see nothing wrong with it,and Yes Matchmen should be allowed to use Keepnets as long as the Barbel in the Keepnets are not overcrowded,and I do hate to be told what to do by a Hollier than Thou Society of any sort.

Bob
 

Baz

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Barbel for 'winter' sport Bob?
Surely there is an easier species that are more willing to feed in cold conditions?
 

Simon K

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Bob R, thank you for replying.

I'm glad you bring up "the difference between hearsy and evidence". It is the fundamental problem I have with your posts on this subject.

In reply to Barries piece you publicly ask for "scientific evidence". You are not going to accept the conclusions put forward, based on simple hearsay.

Fine, I have no problem with this.

What I do have a problem with is that in "another thread" (as one example) that ran recently (which I read through the archives) you quite plainly made a number of accusations and statements (which you claimed supported your case) based on "the word on the street" and (if I may use the phrase) Chinese Whispers. Particularly after those people involved came back and said they were there and you were wrong. You had no proof, yet happily believed the hearsay and fobbed them off. (Or so it seems to me).

And now, with eye-witnesses (Blunderer et al) putting their reputations on the line, you won't believe on the same basis???????

There is a word for this.

I like to see people express their opinions (right or wrong), but I think you do your fellow forum-users an injustice, by your inconsistency. If you require "scientific evidence", ALWAYS ask for it. If you're happy with hearsay, ALWAYS be happy with it. Cherry-Picking means you are Playing To The Gallery.......and undermines any genuine point/opinion you may have.

Please sort this out, it would save a lot of argument. ;-)

Most species travel large distances in rivers (relative to the size of the system and any barriers), but it doesn't stop them settling down in Stillwater. Regardless of size. They travel as far as they need to. In this case a few yards. This is imho a Large Red Herring.

Woody, the "What's the Point" has, from what I've read, been done to death. This is beyond that. This is purely about Unaided Stillwater Breeding. Or did I misread Bob R's intro post and title?
 
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