Benyon Rejects Canoeists’ ‘Right to Paddle’ Campaign

david perry

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Yes, Jason, this is something most sensible paddlers are aware of and certainly don't want.

But re Hire companies and so on, I would guess that smaller rivers - are we talking about streams? or tiny rivers? are not as attractive to hire companies as they'd be harder to paddle and simply physically couldn't accommodate the number of canoes they'd need to to male it economical.

As someone who has his foot in 3 camps, environmental/wildlife, paddling & fishing I couldn't think of anything worse than access to smaller rivers by large gangs of paddlers hiring canoes and using them throughout the close season, because of the general disturbance all the wildlife using the river system for breeding/nesting and so on.
 

jasonbean1

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but dave what you want opens the door for all that...you would have to take ownership for it...the same as angling clubs that throw out members that misbehave...thing is the likes of the BCU would have no control the same as individual paddlers, it woulld be angling club/landowners trying to police the paddlers.....and it will just end in confrontation, possibly violent on both parts.

Jason
 

nicepix

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We disagree on the existence of a PRN. That doesn't mean that everything I say is wrong or that we have to disagree on everything.

The difference between trespass and harassment is quite clear, yes it is possible to commit harassment while trespassing, but trespassing in itself does not prove harassment.

Quite right. The offence of harassment does not need anyone to trespass.

However, anyone trespassing or anyone who has no legal right to be there has no statutory defence to a charge of harassment.

All an angler need to do is to complain to the police that they have been alarmed, distressed or harassed by a canoeist who has no right to be on the water. That is all it needs.

I would feel quite distressed if I had paid, say £10 for a fishing ticket, looked forward to the day for ages, travelled to the location with a high expectation of a good day (I hope you are taking this down ;) ) and then have my enjoyment spoiled by a canoeist or canoeists who have no legal right to be on the river.

I could also be alarmed to find that the peaceful location I had expected to find had been spoiled by a group of canoeists using the water without permission.

Should any of the said canoeists continue to use the river after being told that they had no right to be there then I would regard that as deliberate harassment.
 

david perry

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but dave what you want opens the door for all that...you would have to take ownership for it...the same as angling clubs that throw out members that misbehave...thing is the likes of the BCU would have no control the same as individual paddlers, it woulld be angling club/landowners trying to police the paddlers.....and it will just end in confrontation, possibly violent on both parts.

Jason

Potentially I agree Jason.

What I would hope is that there should be some restrictions/control or whatever. Perhaps, and it's only an idea, potentially with flaws, but if individual paddlers were licensed and had a great big identifying lettering on the side of their boats like I believe you need to paddle British Waterways, or events like the Devize to Westminster canoe race and so on, troublesome individuals/groups etc., could be banned. The regulatory body could be the BCU, EA etc.,

Equally it wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibilities that canoeing could take place only within the structure of a club in the same way that if I want to fish on the River nonsuch' I'd have to join the 'river Nonsuch Angling Club'. If you then say, paddle on a river covered by the paddling club and you defy the club rules, (agreed with anglers), then you'd be turfed out of the club and have no access to their waters.

Heaven help us, perhaps we could have joint fishing and canoeing clubs!!
 
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twotrucks

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barney, dave....putting the legal bit aside, i take it you are aware of the problems you would cause on smaller rivers should you get the full access your after?

i've said this before, the problem doesnt lie with the few that would respect anglers and the river...the problem is what you bring with you in the way of hire companies and alike.

Your bogeyman of Wye style canoe hire companies anywhere else simply doesn't exist.

If things changed overnight and Martin Salter suddenly published a joint press release with Richard Benyon stating that they had seen the light and recognised the long held right for the public to navigate on rivers then pretty much nothing would change.

OK, so there would be less "excuses" for bad behavior by everybody, but you wouldn't get any more or different kinds of paddlers on the rivers.

Everyone seems agreed that there is little practically to stop paddlers in most places they want to go and they already effectively have access along rivers.

The reason that hire operators are on the Wye is that it is the only kind of water that their customers can even vaguely handle and most of them can't handle that. If you put one of their customers on a small fast moving river then the customer would end up dead and the boat would end up trashed. Neither of these are good for business - it simply will not happen and if it does the owners/directors will end up in court on a manslaughter charge sooner or later with ensuing and much deserved wholesale regulation of the entire industry.

There are tiny numbers of folks that paddle g3/4/5 in the UK, nothing like the millions that paddle on the Wye or similar in a hired boat once in a while. It really is totally different.
 
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david perry

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Well, you may be right two trucks - I don't think canoeing is suddenly going to become more popular than it is now. But Jason asked the question that many anglers have a concern about, and without wanting to explain or ask whether he was referring to rapids/white water 'small' rivers or simply small (narrow) flat ones I offered some possible solutions - if it did become a problem.

So, Jason, to clarify. If you're talking about narrow rivers with rapids, then the one off group of customers or 'casual' paddlers simply won't have the skill to do them.
 
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Berty

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One for you paddlers.......

All the situations of navigation i can think of in the past are linked in some way to "trade"........think about that for a while.

When you have thought about it deeply ask yourselves if you really are entitled to seek this right to navigate, simple answer is no you don't!

You simply want to spend what modern living allows you to, if it means ignoring the law, ruining others days out etc etc bothers you not one bit!

You have nothing to trade here either!
 

twotrucks

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One for you paddlers.......
All the situations of navigation i can think of in the past are linked in some way to "trade"........think about that for a while.

When you have thought about it deeply ask yourselves if you really are entitled to seek this right to navigate, simple answer is no you don't!

Most modern footpaths started as drovers paths or routes for labourers to get between jobs.

Doesn't mean I'm not allowed to go for a walk on one if I haven't got a flock of sheep with me!

Nice try though!
 

geoffmaynard

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Most modern footpaths started as drovers paths or routes for labourers to get between jobs.

Doesn't mean I'm not allowed to go for a walk on one if I haven't got a flock of sheep with me!

Nice try though!

Even if they are not Public footpaths, eh twotrucks?
 

barney20

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barney, dave....putting the legal bit aside, i take it you are aware of the problems you would cause on smaller rivers should you get the full access your after?

i've said this before, the problem doesnt lie with the few that would respect anglers and the river...the problem is what you bring with you in the way of hire companies and alike.

so does that bother you?...would you then see the paddlers that are causing problems as your problem?

i doubt very much you would and it would be left to the clubs and landowners to try and sort out the mess you have put upon us.

Jason

There are not thousands of people waiting to go canoeing or set up hire companies as soon as the law on navigation is clarified/changed to allow it.

Anglers and others see the canoeists on the Wye and think if there was an accepted PRN all rivers would be like that, with crowds of idiots in hire canoes.
My response to that is go and look at the River Severn between Pool Quay and Coalport, 60 miles of river with an undisputed right to navigate, a few campsites suitable for canoes, and no motor boats. Yet there are hardly any canoes or kayaks on most of the river (there will be a few at Jackfield rapids which is owned by a canoe club).
The Wye is a fairly unique river, long enough for multi day trips, with "rapids" that can be shot by people who have no experience or training. Other rivers don't have those features, so hire companies won't use them.

The paddlers that cause problems are my problem, if they didn't exist there would be less opposition and I wouldn't feel worried every time I saw an angler that he was going to have a go at me because of what some other canoeist had done or said.

If the PRN was recognised there could be a code of conduct for paddlers and anglers and a system for policing it, those that behave unacceptably should be dealt with by the authorities. This system could include restrictions on when and if individuals rivers could be paddled, based on environmental considerations. And yes paddlers could be required to have a licence.

---------- Post added at 17:28 ---------- Previous post was at 17:16 ----------

Quite right. The offence of harassment does not need anyone to trespass.

However, anyone trespassing or anyone who has no legal right to be there has no statutory defence to a charge of harassment.

All an angler need to do is to complain to the police that they have been alarmed, distressed or harassed by a canoeist who has no right to be on the water. That is all it needs.

I would feel quite distressed if I had paid, say £10 for a fishing ticket, looked forward to the day for ages, travelled to the location with a high expectation of a good day (I hope you are taking this down ;) ) and then have my enjoyment spoiled by a canoeist or canoeists who have no legal right to be on the river.

I could also be alarmed to find that the peaceful location I had expected to find had been spoiled by a group of canoeists using the water without permission.

Should any of the said canoeists continue to use the river after being told that they had no right to be there then I would regard that as deliberate harassment.

Even if I accept everything you say about harassment is right (which I don't), your whole basis for proving it is harassment if someone paddles past while you are fishing is that they have no legal right to be there.

Any paddler who was prosecuted for harassment in the circumstances you describe could just say that the PRN exists and they had a right to be there.

In those circumstances the CPS would likely drop the case as it is a legal mine field that could cost them a fortune all in the hope of securing a conviction for a relatively minor crime.

In a way both sides would benefit if a case like this did happen, as it would lead to a clarification of the law.

It's over 30 years since a successful case of trespass was brought against a canoeist. Given that he lost the court case because he didn't turn up, it is hardly a brilliant piece of case law to base your arguments on.

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:28 ----------

but dave what you want opens the door for all that...you would have to take ownership for it...the same as angling clubs that throw out members that misbehave...thing is the likes of the BCU would have no control the same as individual paddlers, it woulld be angling club/landowners trying to police the paddlers.....and it will just end in confrontation, possibly violent on both parts.

Jason
That already happens, if the PRN was accepted, the situation would be easier to manage. The BCU could work with landowners to educate and control paddlers.
 
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Berty

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Most modern footpaths started as drovers paths or routes for labourers to get between jobs.

Doesn't mean I'm not allowed to go for a walk on one if I haven't got a flock of sheep with me!

Nice try though!



Nope....land rights of way are a different issue, and at times even they have to be proven, plenty of drovers paths were over private land and subject to toll.

I repeat, ALL navigation rights came about through trade........you have nothing to trade.
 

jasonbean1

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for me it seems the BCU and paddlers have not thought this through at all, there no comprehnsive plan to bring about what they want...all you are doing is creating a divide with the land owners and anglers meaning you are not going to get anywhere legally or voluntarily.
 

nicepix

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Several points raised by twotrucks are incorrect, probably deliberately so.

Firstly his assertion that people new to canoes would not risk fast moving water is erroneous as demonstrated in France where canoe hire companies are prevalent along the banks of fast moving rivers such as the Vienne. There are no restrictions to the hirer's, no checks on ability and the river is 100 metres wide, flows at least as fast as the Wye and has many dangerous weirs and obstacles that have to be negotiated. Similarly, there are umpteen places where independent canoeists paddle despite the so-called dangers that would in twotrucks example put the family paddler off.

Secondly, as Berty has correctly said, navigation rights came about due to a trade route. Other than those trade routes there was no river traffic and therefore a level of privacy was established. This does not reflect twotrucks footpath argument.

And, I am afraid that Barney is clutching at straws with his legal interpretations. When he eventually understands the laws of harassment he will realise that it is a very easy offence to prove and all it takes is for someone, an angler for example, to state to the police that they have been harassed. That's it. nothing more. And given that the canoeist cannot prove that he was doing nothing wrong because there is no right to navigate he is up the creek as they say.

What this actually needs is for anglers to lobby Mr. Benyon on this e-mail address: richard@richardbenyon.com to ask for a specific law of "Navigating on a Waterway Other Than That With a Legal Right of Navigation". That would make things a lot easier for both sides. I'm sure that responsible canoeists would welcome such a move :wh
 

barney20

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Nope....land rights of way are a different issue, and at times even they have to be proven, plenty of drovers paths were over private land and subject to toll.

I repeat, ALL navigation rights came about through trade........you have nothing to trade.

Historically some river navigation was for personal transport, and this would have contributed to navigation rights being passed.

Some footpaths,bridleways or other land based rights of ways were established because they were used only for trade purposes, however now those rights of way have been established they can be used by anyone.

Most if not all the navigation rights that you recognise are based on Acts of Parliament that were created to improve the navigation for trade purposes, but those navigation rights can be used by anyone.

A right of way is a right of way, the existence of any right of way can be disputed, but if it does exist anyone can use it.

---------- Post added at 02:51 ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 ----------

.............................................
And, I am afraid that Barney is clutching at straws with his legal interpretations. When he eventually understands the laws of harassment he will realise that it is a very easy offence to prove and all it takes is for someone, an angler for example, to state to the police that they have been harassed. That's it. nothing more. And given that the canoeist cannot prove that he was doing nothing wrong because there is no right to navigate he is up the creek as they say.
....................................................

So I can dial 999 and tell the police you harassed me, and that's it, case proven your guilty. Seems unlikely to me.

If a canoeist was being prosecuted for harassment he would not have to prove he was doing nothing wrong, it is a criminal offence and it would be up to the prosecution to prove he was doing something wrong. If he presented the PRN as his defence (quoting the relevant Acts of Parliament to show it existed) the prosecution would then have to prove it didn't exist.
Obviously we disagree on if the PRN exists, but surely you can see that the case is not totaly clear cut, and the CPS would be highly unlikely to proceed with a case like this.

Understanding the law is not just based on the technicalities of what Acts of Parliament say, it is also based on the practicalities of how it can be enforced, and basics such as innocent until proven guilty.

---------- Post added at 03:01 ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 ----------

for me it seems the BCU and paddlers have not thought this through at all, there no comprehnsive plan to bring about what they want...all you are doing is creating a divide with the land owners and anglers meaning you are not going to get anywhere legally or voluntarily.

The BCU has spent the last 30+ years trying to negotiate voluntary agreements, and has got virtually no where. The divide with the landowners and anglers already exists.

I can't comment on what the BCU/CE's plan is at the moment.
For many paddlers it is simple, the PRN exists therefore they paddle where they want. Not an ideal situation, and I would prefer a definitive clarification of the Law from the government. e.g. a yes or no answer to the question does the PRN exist.

---------- Post added at 03:07 ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 ----------

.............................................
Secondly, as Berty has correctly said, navigation rights came about due to a trade route. Other than those trade routes there was no river traffic and therefore a level of privacy was established. This does not reflect twotrucks footpath argument.
.............................................
Why isn't it the same for rights of way on land as water. There are some footpaths and other rights of way that were established as trade routes, yet now they can be used by anyone, regardless of the reason for there journey.

oh, and by the way you and Berty seem to be accepting that the navigation rights do exist, as long as the people using them claim to be travelling for trade purposes, which would allow hire companies and coaching sessions on the rivers.

---------- Post added at 03:11 ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 ----------

.......................................................
What this actually needs is for anglers to lobby Mr. Benyon on this e-mail address: richard@richardbenyon.com to ask for a specific law of "Navigating on a Waterway Other Than That With a Legal Right of Navigation". That would make things a lot easier for both sides. I'm sure that responsible canoeists would welcome such a move :wh

All canoeists could support such a law, on the basis that the PRN exists on all rivers, the law you suggest wouldn't actually apply anywhere.
 

nicepix

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Barney,

Have you ever investigated and submitted a file to CPS for Harassment? No, I thought not. I have. And the examples you give are based on a thick slice of ignorance.

The rights to navigation cannot just be superimposed on us using the footpaths argument. A route that became a footpath would have had people travelling over it on a continuous basis for a long period of time. That is not the case with rivers. Therefore anyone with river frontage on a non navigable river would have their privacy compromised if a right of navigation was established. Anyone with interests on a river such as an angling club or bird reserve would have their interests compromised.

Also, in land right of way there are specifics to prevent say cyclists using footpaths, motorcycles using bridle ways. It is not the free for all that you imply.

If a compromise was reached allowing more access to rivers as is proposed by some parties, then a specific law allowing easy prosecution of those who choose to navigate rivers where no navigation has been allowed should be welcomed by any law abiding canoeist.

What you seem to want is unrestricted access onto all water based on nothing but your own wishes and without any compromise or payment to injured parties. I think that you are actually undermining the cause of canoeists. Keep it up.
 

barney20

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Barney,

Have you ever investigated and submitted a file to CPS for Harassment? No, I thought not. I have. And the examples you give are based on a thick slice of ignorance.

No I haven't, of more relevance has any paddler ever been prosecuted for harassment while simply paddling on a river?

This would be far easier than prosecuting for trespass, only the landowner can prosecute for trespass, any angler could complain to the police about harassment, and unlike a trespass case they wouldn't have to pay. Yet it's never been done, possibly because a case like this would lead to the legal acceptance of the PRN.

The rights to navigation cannot just be superimposed on us using the footpaths argument. A route that became a footpath would have had people travelling over it on a continuous basis for a long period of time. That is not the case with rivers. Therefore anyone with river frontage on a non navigable river would have their privacy compromised if a right of navigation was established. Anyone with interests on a river such as an angling club or bird reserve would have their interests compromised.

I fully accept that the navigation rights case is not the same as land based rights of way, the situations are different, and can not be directly compared.

But to respond to your point, yes for a footpath to be legally established it has to have continuous use over a long period of time, however once it has been established, it remains a right of way regardless of how much it is used.
That is the same argument that is being applied to rivers, the rights were established over hundreds of years of continuous use and therefore must still exist.

As to your point about people with river frontages, or angling clubs, or nature reserves etc having their privacy or interests compromised, the case for the PRN is that it has always existed, those people may have been lucky that it hasn't been used in recent years but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If people have been told there is no PRN when they bought there house or fishing rights etc they should complain to the person who gave this advice. Sometimes old footpaths are reinstated and people suddenly discover there is a right of way through there back garden.

For nature reserves, these already often have rights of way going through them on the land, so if there was one on a river it shouldn't be that different. If it was going to have an adverse effect on the environment or animals, then restrictions could be put in place.

Also, in land right of way there are specifics to prevent say cyclists using footpaths, motorcycles using bridle ways. It is not the free for all that you imply.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was a free for all, I realise footpaths are only for pedestrians, and motor vehicles can't use bridleways etc.
The PRN case is for "unpowered craft" i.e. craft with out motors, so canoes, kayaks, rowing boats, and theoretically sailing boats. Realistically on most disputed rivers it is only going to be canoes, kayaks and maybe a few rowing boats.

If a compromise was reached allowing more access to rivers as is proposed by some parties, then a specific law allowing easy prosecution of those who choose to navigate rivers where no navigation has been allowed should be welcomed by any law abiding canoeist.

If the PRN was accepted and there were exceptions for environmental or other reasons they would be established in law, and therefore prosecution would be possible. If that requires a specific new law is not for me to decide. If it is established that there is no PRN on a river I would have thought the trespass laws would be suitable

I'm not sure what you mean by "easy prosecution", all prosecutions should be based on all available evidence, and should be fair and based on the innocent until proven guilty principle. It shouldn't be easier to prosecute paddlers as opposed to anglers, builders, nurses, lawyers, drivers or any one else. Any one breaking the law should be prosecuted.

What you seem to want is unrestricted access onto all water based on nothing but your own wishes and without any compromise or payment to injured parties. I think that you are actually undermining the cause of canoeists. Keep it up.

If the PRN already exists then that is far more than "my own wishes", and the only injured parties are those that are denied the right to navigate. I don't pay to walk on a public footpath, the PRN is based on similar principles.

I would support a licence fee for all rivers, not just those with specific Navigation Acts.
I would also want talks between paddlers and anglers, to establish codes of conduct.
I would accept compromise around when each group could use rivers, eg no paddling if there is a fishing competition, no fishing when there is a paddling competition etc, but for most of the time I think the 2 groups could share the waterways.
 

jasonbean1

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I would accept compromise around when each group could use rivers, eg no paddling if there is a fishing competition, no fishing when there is a paddling competition etc, but for most of the time I think the 2 groups could share the waterways.

Barney...that's a better starting point regardless of the legal side, my own opinion is that in some way we could share but reality tells me it would be something different. the more people using the water, understanding the problems and lobbying for improvements the better..ultimately we would need hard cash from you though. how many paddlers would want to contrribute the average amounts that anglers do?

most anglers that object do from a care of there sport and environment...for me it's not about "i want this river for myself, it's mine **** off"

paddlers have got to come up with a better/fairer approach than the one they are using currently if they want to move forward

Jason
 

nicepix

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Barney, you keep on asserting that there is a historic right to navigate all waters without once giving any legal foundation to that assertion.

If you were correct, and you are not, then the government would not be spending time and money trying to negotiate a solution. Their lawyers would have picked up on this. Neither would boat owners have been coughing up licence fees to British Waterways and the like if they had a legal right to navigate. And you would not need to be on here trying to put your case. If you had a legal right to paddle anywhere then just get on with it. :rolleyes:

The simple answer is that you have absolutely no idea of the law, not a jot and so interpret fragments of law to suit your purpose. To put it bluntly you are acting like an idiot.

There are two ways to obtain access to waters with no legal right of navigation;

Negotiate a change in the law to allow it. And you are not exactly helping your cause in that respect.

Buy some stretches of river in the same way that people purchase plots of land to allow off road motorbikes to lawfully ride off road.

I am not going to waste my time debating further with you as your childish legal arguments are not worthy of an adult forum.
 
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