Benyon Rejects Canoeists’ ‘Right to Paddle’ Campaign

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Berty

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The Lugg is included in the Wye Lugg navigation ACT, that is why paddlers have acces, which means those not included in such an act have no access to paddlers!?

Even on the Lugg there are recognised no access points and you cannot enter that land legally, so if not legally being allowed somewhere and if no act exists for that river you have no right to be there.

The Lugg has many fallen trees in some places, i'm sure there will be many more.
 

Windy

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Windy,
You are saying that the PRN doesn't exist, but that a GRN does exist on "the great rivers of England".
How were/are these great rivers defined, I can except that they would include the Thames, the Severn and other major rivers, but there are other rivers on which navigation is accepted now days which are in no way "great" eg the Gipping in Suffolk, the Lugg in Wales, and many others.
These rivers have navigation rights, that were not created in the relevant "Navigation Acts" (these were about improving navigation not creating the right), so if the GRN covers them could it not cover many other rivers which are currently not recognised as having navigation rights.

I was and am only concerned to rebutt the suggestion that there ever was or is such a thing as a PRN over all physically navigable waters able to float a log raft in the Stone Age.

I have not sought to research or deal with the last 700 odd years of development of river rights and wrongs. Still less have I sought to research any individual waters - as I said, I take the BCU's list of waters with an exercisable GRN at face value.

I assume that as a reputable body well advised by expert lawyers and with local documentation to hand for each river, that they have it right. That's part of your problem arguing for wider and far more extensive PRN rights, you have to overcome your own sporting bodies' own researches. Hardly surprising they are keeping their heads well down. It's the advice I would have given them if ever asked :wh.

If you re-read my post analysing the Commentator Roger de Hoovenden's writings you will note that it is obvious that substantial navigation took place not only in the original Great rives but in the lesser rivers as well, "wood and the like" other things being carried.

The difference and definition, in so far as material, is the King's protection of Great rivers. A Great river is one that has the King's protection versus the rest that don't. You don't have to have the King's protection for a minor or lesser river to be subject to an equivalent local and particular right of navigation.

The category of Great river may itself not have been closed. Others may well have come to be added over the centuries to the primary pair (Thamesis and Meadway) evidenced in Magna Carta. The simplest way to add to the category of Great river would be the King's simply saying so, exercising the prerogative to protect such and such additional river as vital to the Crown, commerce and the security of the nation.

How can such particular rights of navigation arise in the lesser waters ? Long standing custom and continuous active user is of the essence of Common Law. See the equivalent legal debate over antient rights of way on land that was part and parcel of the legal background and controversy supporting the Kinder Scout and other instances of NOT civil trespass that finally led to the right to roam acts*.

So if the local authorities or landowners adjoining a minor navigable water let people navigate up and down - to their commercial advantage - without objection or interruption, confining their financial claims to mooring fees etc. then do it long enough to become firmly established common law custom and practice in the locality and on that particular river and there you have it.

Though equally it should be remembered that common law rights of this sort do require (as with the antient rights of way on land) to be continuously exercised, even if infrequently, or they are liable to lapse.

[Edit]Silting up is the classic example...nature itself preventing navigation and then, by lapse of time and impossibility of user, the right itself lapses[/Edit]

Another way of creating such local rights is if the local authorities - or equivalent way back when - may simply have said so. "Warewivelhamptonshire welcomes commercial traffic" or equivalent, to their local advantage.

Then there is statute. The specific creation of a new right of Navigation by statute, or variation of existing common law rights. Instances might be such as where a formerly un-navigable river was dredged and portions straightened to allow commercial or vital military traffic, or to extend that commercial traffic further upstream than the historic rights went. Or more simply, the creation of a new canal running where no water ever did before, to define its purpose and existence.

There are hundreds of such Navigation Statutes that apply to each particular water, to create, vary, extinguish or otherwise affect the rights of navigation in that particular water. Each to be considered on its merits. Researching them is many lifetime's work and for a legal historian like the Reverend C, if he thinks that the BCU have missed one. Not my cup of tea ;).


I digress.

I trust that is sufficient answer for your present purposes ?



* In which I believe the Rev. C played no small part as an activist. Now trying to repeat the trick on the rivers ? but without the same legal merits I fear.
 
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bennygesserit

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I think I may be tempted, the next time a canoe passes me on a non-PRN river, to speak to him/her politely and ask his/her name and address so that I can then pass it on to the club who possess the fishing rights and they together with the land owner can take out an injunction against that person and ALL paddlers from trespassing over his land so that if any others do it in future they can be held in contempt of Court.

(I think that is the case that Windy was explaining earlier. :confused:)

In the meatime I shall also practice drawing my catapult and loading and firing the hempseed in case said canoeist/s refuses to give his/her name and address and exchanges instead mouthfulls of abuse then paddles off as I'm only feeding my swim after all and trying to prevent the fish from bolting... :wh

And of the two illegal acts yours would be by far the most serious , this is fine till you blind some kid out with his family for a day on the river, Jeff this is a terrible post.
 
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Windy

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I'm with Benny on that one. Two wrongs don't make a right. Tempting tho it may be to let loose.
 

geoffmaynard

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So if the local authorities or landowners adjoining a minor navigable water let people navigate up and down - to their commercial advantage - without objection or interruption, confining their financial claims to mooring fees etc. then do it long enough to become firmly established common law custom and practice in the locality and on that particular river and there you have it.

Windy - In the case of a river stretch with no navigation rights, where canoeists have been flouting the law and paddling anyway, how many years would they have to be paddling it before it became allowable as 'common law practice' ? And would this still apply if there were regular protests or objections through those years by the riparian owners, or their agents i.e. a fishing club?
 

Windy

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Windy - In the case of a river stretch with no navigation rights, where canoeists have been flouting the law and paddling anyway, how many years would they have to be paddling it before it became allowable as 'common law practice' ?

Very very many years. In the case of land, conventionally 20 years (although I know there is a new prescription act which I haven't read or looked at and which may affect things).

And would this still apply if there were regular protests or objections through those years by the riparian owners, or their agents i.e. a fishing club?

No. The classic conditions for the acquisition of adverse possessory rights are "nec vi, nec clam, nec precario*".

Very well summarised by Wikipedia, quote:

"a Latin legal term meaning 'not by force, nor stealth, nor licence'. It is the principle by which rights may be built up over time, principally public rights of way in the United Kingdom. Specifically, if a path is used – openly, not against protests, and without permission of the landowner – for an extended period (20 years) then a permanent legal right to such use is usually established. It is often referred to in the context of adverse possession and other land law issues. It is also relevant to the creation of easements whereby the law 'prescribes' an easement in the absence of a deed. In order for the law to do so the right of way or easement needs to have been enjoyed without force, without secrecy, and without permission for a period of time, usually 20 years".


Protests and objections are fatal to the aquisition of prescriptive rights. Time simply does not start to run.

* sometimes modified to add "nec omissio", ie. without any substantial omission to exercise the suggested right during the period of adverse user. ie. it wouldn't suffice to prove that someone paddled it 21 years ago, and then paddle it again today "establishing" more than 21 years user. Nope, needs to be continuous and regular.

[Edit]If you are low on sleeping pills and interested in an historical summary of the law of adverse possession then try the judgment of Lord Hoffman in House of Lords - Regina v. Oxfordshire County Council and Others Ex Parte Sunningwell Parish Council[/Edit]
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199899/ldjudgmt/jd990624/sun.htm
 
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Fred Bonney

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I know on dry land that if somebody enjoys continued unimpeded access on land for 12 years,and they can prove this to be so, they gain a prescriptive right to the land in question.

I think logically the same may apply to "rivers", but I wouldn't argue with our learned friend if he was to tell me otherwise.
If it is the case that access does occur and the landowner is aware of this, he must prevent access at least once, I think in a year, for a set period, usually by giving notice. This is to ensure rights aren't obtained.
 

Windy

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12 years for adverse possession I think Fred (ie. actual ownership of the land), 20 for an easement, (ie. rights over land owned by someone else) tho as I said, I know there has been a new Act in the last three or four years or so which I haven't as yet troubled myself in legal retirement to read and research.

I haven't needed to, as I have never had any problem sleeping without tablets :wh

[Edit]Land Registration Act 2002, see http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/professional/guides/practice-guide-4 for a summary of the effects, applies to registered land only and gives you the right to apply for title after 10 years adverse possession, but the former / registered owner can object; after 12 years you can apply and he can't object. Why on earth anyone in adverse possession would be stupid enough to apply after 10 years (and basically lose, given the very limited grounds to succeed) when they only have to carry on for the good old traditional 12 years I don't know.... only if the landowner woke up after 10 years and a day and objected, otherwise let the 12 years run ![/Edit]
 
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tiinker

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And of the two illegal acts yours would be by far the most serious , this is fine till you blind some kid out with his family for a day on the river, Jeff this is a terrible post.

Seeing as you are making up situations what about the canoeist who annoys an angler that much that he has a heart attack on the bank why come down on the canoeists side or the canoeist who pulls some ones gear in the water and they drown trying to recover it . you do come the acid at times why involve children.
 

bennygesserit

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Seeing as you are making up situations what about the canoeist who annoys an angler that much that he has a heart attack on the bank why come down on the canoeists side or the canoeist who pulls some ones gear in the water and they drown trying to recover it . you do come the acid at times why involve children.

Because these type of threats - casting a lead across a canoe no matter who was in it have been removed from several prominent angling Facebook pages in the last few days.

Because no one really wants a violent encounter when you are enjoying the river , because I have seen some canoeists discussing how shot was used in this manner not hemp.

Because there is a civilised way to solve this without creating or promoting a ruck.

---------- Post added at 18:01 ---------- Previous post was at 17:59 ----------

Also I don't think I am coming down on one side or another.
 

nicepix

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Can you quote those lies?

I have the stated that paddlers believe in the PRN, the BCU do not have a position on the PRN, they delegate that to the relevant national bodies eg CE, SCA, CANI, CW. I accept the position of CE on the PRN is unclear, many paddlers are unhappy about this, and the vast majority of paddlers are not members of CE.
The quote you used to prove that i "lied" is out of date, and you are pretending I said something which I didn't.

If I lied about there not being legislation covering the PRN, can you state what that piece of legislation is? A court ruling is not legislation.

I said that the Goverment are not spending money trying to resolve this issue, you quoted a statement dated 2008 to show I lied, clearly that statement refers to money spent up to 2008. We are now in 2013, and I didn't say the government had never spent any money on this issue.

It appears to be you who is trying to bluff your way through.

1. You stated that there was a historic right of navigation based on a mixture of Roman laws, the Magna Carta and some ex-student who was smart enough to write his thesis on a subject so obtuse that his examiner would not be able to comment on the legalities, etc. Not only is that rubbish, but your beloved representatives knew that there was no right of navigation, hence them entering into private agreements. That rather undermines your position and you knew that.

2. Windy has given details of the legislation. The award for damages made against the absent canoeist could not have been made if there was no underpinning legislation. Why cannot you understand this?

3. The amount spent up to 2008 is nearly £400,000. Richard Benyon is still engaged within his ministerial post in trying to resolve this situation. Why? Because people like you keep on pretending that you have what you haven't. I think that money could be better spent on more pressing matters.

So basically you are either lying or a totally thick to ignore all the evidence against the canoeist's imaginary rights. Let me spell it out so you understand:

THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHTS TO PADDLE ANYWHERE OTHER THAN RIVERS WITH A PUBLIC RIGHT OF NAVIGATION.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND? :eek:mg:
 
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Berty

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;)

Because these type of threats - casting a lead across a canoe no matter who was in it have been removed from several prominent angling Facebook pages in the last few days.

Because no one really wants a violent encounter when you are enjoying the river , because I have seen some canoeists discussing how shot was used in this manner not hemp.

Because there is a civilised way to solve this without creating or promoting a ruck.

---------- Post added at 18:01 ---------- Previous post was at 17:59 ----------

Also I don't think I am coming down on one side or another.


Not ALL the canoists seem to want to handle this in a civilised way!!......have you ever thought about the difficulties of actually getting fishing "shot" into a catapult in time to use it on a passing paddler???

It is simply a load of bowlocks being spouted by them and just go's to show that they are prepared to lie and drag angling down in their pathetic attempt to flout the law of the land.

I'm sorry Benny, but you simply cannot take an anglers view in all this, because you do not fish rivers and with all respect are not a "seasoned" angler.

I have seen "good intentions" kill people!!
 

Windy

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Calm down NicePix, remember Usenet / now t'interweb rule one, don't feed the trolls....

Though that's not to denigrate those of our new forum friends who have been genuinely interested to explore the issues in a constructive way.

The people that concern me are the minority of perhaps no more than 20 or so activists with their own political agenda, seeking to foment social and civil disorder at every opportunity, regardless of the issue, regardless of the merits, and quite deliberately using the innocent but deceived well meaning ordinary members as dupes to do their dirty work.

---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:57 ----------

I have seen "good intentions" kill people!!

The road to hell is paved with 'em.
 

tiinker

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Because these type of threats - casting a lead across a canoe no matter who was in it have been removed from several prominent angling Facebook pages in the last few days.

Because no one really wants a violent encounter when you are enjoying the river , because I have seen some canoeists discussing how shot was used in this manner not hemp.

Because there is a civilised way to solve this without creating or promoting a ruck.

---------- Post added at 18:01 ---------- Previous post was at 17:59 ----------

Also I don't think I am coming down on one side or another.
You may not but I do and so does your ally windy . You blow things out of all proportion and you cannot sit on the fence if they have no right to be there they are in the wrong and whats more they know it and people like you back them up.
 

bennygesserit

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You may not but I do and so does your ally windy . You blow things out of all proportion and you cannot sit on the fence if they have no right to be there they are in the wrong and whats more they know it and people like you back them up.

Mate if you have some personal tragedy that has caused this post then my commiserations.

But this is a forum I will say whatever I want.

To get to the truth you have to peel away a lot of b******t , be objective , have an open mind and do a lot of reading, so we both know your opinion will not change mine but if you put forth some facts it might :)

---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------

Ha ha I'm getting caned on the fishing forum and the paddlers forum I'm just off to find a Villa fan page and remind them where they are in the league.
 

barbelboi

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I'm sorry Benny, but you simply cannot take an anglers view in all this, because you do not fish rivers and with all respect are not a "seasoned" angler.

I have seen "good intentions" kill people!!

Benny, I have no wish to criticize your stance but, if you had ever fished smaller rivers such as the Loddon in the summer and the water is very low/clear your opinion might be clearer when paddlers (who have no right to be there) can completely spoil your day. OK, not all species react the same, and barbel can be pretty much 'bullet proof' some of the time, but I always reckon that if a chub is only mildly spooked you will wait at least 10 minutes per pound weight before they will even think about feeding again. There is a big difference to seeing fish again and them being confident to feed.
Jerry
 
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