For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter

[john r stockburn]

Waste of time Kev when someone resorts to rudeness and name calling when anyone dare's have an opinion different to his, the user name really fits doesn't it. I actually feel sorry for anyone that cant enter a debate with reasoned argument without feeling that they are so superior to others that they feel the need to twist words and insult others with a different view to their own.

I doubt he even knows the place you mention but is so far ahead of everyone else he knows all about what goes on there, good grief he must be super human

Unsurprisingly he stay's on my ignore list (a list of just 2 both equally rude.)

yep blinkered single sightedness , like I have said very early on this post I hope to have video evidence of cute Mr Otter taking lambs this year
but you will never convince some whatever the evidence is

 

[bennygesserit]

Although the anti-otter brigade often sound intuitively correct it does not agree with all the scientific research I have read.
I would love to see just one , properly conducted and peer reviewed piece of research that states that a native apex predator like the otter will decimate a river population.
Every proper study proves that they will naturally space themselves out - they have to otherwise they would have died out years ago , its why Africa isn't wall to wall lions.

As to complaining that otters should be culled because our river ecology is poor then surely we are complaining about the wrong thing?
We should be using the fact that British Otters only live half as long as their European Cousins ( because of background pollution ) as a powerful indicator of what is happening to our water systems ( like the fat cats sucking Billions out as profits )

If anyone is interested in any of the research please see previous otter threads or make the effort to find the papers online ( its not easy but the truth is out there).

 

[bennygesserit]

yep blinkered single sightedness , like I have said very early on this post I hope to have video evidence of cute Mr Otter taking lambs this year
but you will never convince some whatever the evidence is

They eat a lot of Mink too

 

[thecrow]

They eat a lot of Mink too

And Voles, Bird life wildfowl and koi Carp that owners look on as their pets and anything else they can get their teeth into.

 

[bennygesserit]

And Voles, Bird life wildfowl and koi Carp that owners look on as their pets and anything else they can get their teeth into.

Does that matter?

 

[thecrow]

Does that matter?

Been on the sauce again Benny

 

[thecrow]

they have to otherwise they would have died out years ago , its why Africa isn't wall to wall lions.

I didn't know that Lions had been reintroduced to an already struggling environment as otters were without any studies being done, horses and stable doors?

By the way no one including those that started the petition has mentioned culling otters there are other alternatives that will help control the numbers.

 

[lutra]

I enjoyed that Kev thank you, its only when man interferes that things go wrong and otters were reintroduced at a time when they were recovering on their own more interference from man.

Yet your cure is to vote for more on going interference that would never give nature chance to fine a balance. You (and many of today.s anglers) will never be happy till it fits with how you want it and the place is a manicured zoo to suit your needs. You try to twist the truth with a load of bull and put up pictures of half eaten things that might tug at a few hart strings so others will join you in your quest to manicure the place to how you want it.

I live in the real world where things eat other things. That's nature and it isn't all pretty like a flower and a bee.

I don't care if you don't like me and think I'm rude. Suits me.

 

[bennygesserit]

I didn't know that Lions had been reintroduced to an already struggling environment as otters were without any studies being done, horses and stable doors?

By the way no one including those that started the petition has mentioned culling otters there are other alternatives that will help control the numbers.

sauced ? absolutely

Less than 150 otters were reintroduced , across the UK that seems a small number - what do you think?

To me culling and contraception are synonymous, otters are a natural indicator of good river health , we should as anglers be fighting for them and using their plight to highlight the serious issues that all our rivers are facing.

The image of angling , to most of the public , is Bernard Cribbins gently casting a fly , so think of Bernard looking into the camera holding a dead wide eyed pollution killed Tarka saying "what have we done ?"

To me , a much more powerful and relevant message and one that is going to resonate with millennials

"Its all about the otter man!"

 

[nottskev]

Although the anti-otter brigade often sound intuitively correct it does not agree with all the scientific research I have read.
I would love to see just one , properly conducted and peer reviewed piece of research that states that a native apex predator like the otter will decimate a river population.
Every proper study proves that they will naturally space themselves out - they have to otherwise they would have died out years ago , its why Africa isn't wall to wall lions.

As to complaining that otters should be culled because our river ecology is poor then surely we are complaining about the wrong thing?
We should be using the fact that British Otters only live half as long as their European Cousins ( because of background pollution ) as a powerful indicator of what is happening to our water systems ( like the fat cats sucking Billions out as profits )

If anyone is interested in any of the research please see previous otter threads or make the effort to find the papers online ( its not easy but the truth is out there).

I'm not really in a brigade, and I haven't suggested otters decimate rivers. I did, though, post voicing concern that otters have been appearing on a small big-river tributary which is of borderline status, with only small pockets of eg medium size chub and a history of being knocked back to square one by happenstance. I doubt that any aspect of this river, which limps along in the margins of our neglect, has been subject to academic study, although a friend did qualify in aspects of fishery management via a habitat study based on it. My concerns were that otters visiting to hunt from a nearby big-river base to exploit what might be a thinner population of prey fish but easy pickings, or living temporarily along it while they find out if it's viable as a place to live, may impact on the stocks. We have waited a long time for some recovery in this little river, and this depends on successful spawning by the small numbers of fish present. It may not be demonstrated in an academic paper, but isn't it quite possible that the number of fish might be reduced, and the recovery set back yet again, if, to add to all the other problems, they are being predated by otters, even if the habitat eventually proves inadequate to support otters, or the otters being seen are travelling up it to hunt whilst living on the main river? Would you agree that such things are possible? I set the possibility against the general pro-otter claim that everything levels out ok in the end. We are seeing a process that is new happening, and I don't see any guarantees that everything, while otters recover old territories or test out and find new territories, will pan out without sacrifice of things like the recovery of the small river in question. I quite get why some will be irritated by overstatement of destructive predation; it's also irritating to have any concerns about otters dismissed as mere prejudice or ignorance, not that your post suggested this.

 

[bennygesserit]

I'm not really in a brigade, and I haven't suggested otters decimate rivers. I did, though, post voicing concern that otters have been appearing on a small big-river tributary which is of borderline status, with only small pockets of eg medium size chub and a history of being knocked back to square one by happenstance. I doubt that any aspect of this river, which limps along in the margins of our neglect, has been subject to academic study, although a friend did qualify in aspects of fishery management via a habitat study based on it. My concerns were that otters visiting to hunt from a nearby big-river base to exploit what might be a thinner population of prey fish but easy pickings, or living temporarily along it while they find out if it's viable as a place to live, may impact on the stocks. We have waited a long time for some recovery in this little river, and this depends on successful spawning by the small numbers of fish present. It may not be demonstrated in an academic paper, but isn't it quite possible that the number of fish might be reduced, and the recovery set back yet again, if, to add to all the other problems, they are being predated by otters, even if the habitat eventually proves inadequate to support otters, or the otters being seen are travelling up it to hunt whilst living on the main river? Would you agree that such things are possible? I set the possibility against the general pro-otter claim that everything levels out ok in the end. We are seeing a process that is new happening, and I don't see any guarantees that everything, while otters recover old territories or test out and find new territories, will pan out without sacrifice of things like the recovery of the small river in question. I quite get why some will be irritated by overstatement of destructive predation; it's also irritating to have any concerns about otters dismissed as mere prejudice or ignorance, not that your post suggested this.

I think absolutely there will be a variation against some standard mean surrounding a predator prey relationship Lotka–Volterra equations - Wikipedia
Again intuitively it seems the experience of actual anglers on the bank would be the correct indicator but there are just too many factors involved.
But intuition should never replace hard evidenced fact.


I think in 50 years angling will be banned ( and I love catching fish ) unless we are seen as eco warriors , protectors of a symbiosis with a natural world.
So lets latch onto the otter , catch its coat tails , plus who cares about big fat pig of a barbel ? only men with small penisis ?

 

[bennygesserit]

Ha Ha did I blow it with the penis remark ?

 

[nottskev]

Ha Ha did I blow it with the penis remark ?

No problem with the penis remark. I'm a medium size chub bloke myself. But your first sentence..........................

 

[tigger]

I think absolutely there will be a variation against some standard mean surrounding a predator prey relationship Lotka–Volterra equations - Wikipedia
Again intuitively it seems the experience of actual anglers on the bank would be the correct indicator but there are just too many factors involved.
But intuition should never replace hard evidenced fact.


I think in 50 years angling will be banned ( and I love catching fish ) unless we are seen as eco warriors , protectors of a symbiosis with a natural world.
So lets latch onto the otter , catch its coat tails , plus who cares about big fat pig of a barbel ? only men with small penisis ?

Your a flat **** arn't you?

 

[bennygesserit]

Your a flat **** arn't you?

R U gay

 

[tigger]

R U gay

.
You don't go fishing but come on here from time to time to wind people up.
****s like you should be banned from the forum, your just a troll.
Oh, a cowardly troll n'all hahaha.

 

[bennygesserit]

how many people you threatened now ?

 

[The bad one]

yep blinkered single sightedness , like I have said very early on this post I hope to have video evidence of cute Mr Otter taking lambs this year
but you will never convince some whatever the evidence is

I wait with baited breath for this video! Oh and don't forget the videos of an otter taking babies and "attacking kids" as Steve Pope wrote on his FB page. No doubt the "I'm not looking because he's on my ignore list Crow" will attempt to bully call me all sorts of names claim he's the innocent party :der: whilst he's attempting to twist and say SP didn't write that....... whilst he's not looking..... blah blah blah..........yeah right he didn't! A poor Obfuscation as usual with you btw, to avoid answering the clearly seen question pose eh Crow! mg: Oh and by the way for someone who you are ignoring you are doing a lot of answering to the points I make :smug:

Yourfirst paragraph accuses me of failing to entertain a number ofplausible reasons why I might not have caught yesterday, and ofconcluding, like some noddy that started fishing yesterday, that"otters have eaten all the fish". This gift for combining abrowbeating, patronising manner with less than forensic readingskills is quite outstanding. My post actually referred to otterspossibly having an adverse effect on the few fish present, (read itand see) and, as is widely known, the presence of an apex predatorcan, alongside the terminal effect on those eaten, cause survivingprey to adopt new habits, such as spending more time in seekingshelter and concealment rather than in seeking food. I entertainedthe idea that the fish might have been driven to vacate some of theirusual places. You seem inclined to misread what's actually posted inorder to set up an attack on the poster for being short-sighted. Anyirony there?

Lateron, you take my point that locals who walk the banks dailyspontaneously reported their first otter sightings when they stoppedto talk to me, and twist it into an illustration of the psychology ofrumour, so once again we are all credulous idiots in our ownbackyards, whilst you enjoy synoptic vision from 100 miles away. Ithink the debate in this thread and others like it is interesting,and it doesn't bother me that people hold different views. But the"voice of science" speaks more persuasively when it's not full of aggressive rhetorical bombast, and recognises that nobody has the monopoly on intelligence.

Kev I accused you of nothing if you read it properly, I asked you a series of questions. If you seen them as browbeating and patronising and lacking forensic reading skills then so be it!
As to fish “adopt new habits.... have been driven to vacate some of their usual places,etc,” yes I would entertain that as a possibility had you wrote that. But you didn't you were vague in what you wrote and explained,which is not as your are claiming in the above quote now .... “I don't see why I would be making a mistake in judging that attention from otters is something this little river can ill afford, and an otter can do plenty of damage here without eating itself out of house and home”


I think you are attempting to misrepresent what I actually wrote regarding the general public “….and twist it into an illustration of the psychology of rumour....” somewhat bad-manneredly in my view. People in glass houses and all that..........!

 

[john r stockburn]

I wait with baited breath for this video! Oh and don't forget the videos of an otter taking babies and "attacking kids" as Steve Pope wrote on his FB page. No doubt the "I'm not looking because he's on my ignore list Crow" will attempt to bully call me all sorts of names claim he's the innocent party :der: whilst he's attempting to twist and say SP didn't write that....... whilst he's not looking..... blah blah blah..........yeah right he didn't! A poor Obfuscation as usual with you btw, to avoid answering the clearly seen question pose eh Crow! mg: Oh and by the way for someone who you are ignoring you are doing a lot of answering to the points I make :smug:
Kev I accused you of nothing if you read it properly, I asked you a series of questions. If you seen them as browbeating and patronising and lacking forensic reading skills then so be it!
As to fish “adopt new habits.... have been driven to vacate some of their usual places,etc,” yes I would entertain that as a possibility had you wrote that. But you didn't you were vague in what you wrote and explained,which is not as your are claiming in the above quote now .... “I don't see why I would be making a mistake in judging that attention from otters is something this little river can ill afford, and an otter can do plenty of damage here without eating itself out of house and home”


I think you are attempting to misrepresent what I actually wrote regarding the general public “….and twist it into an illustration of the psychology of rumour....” somewhat bad-manneredly in my view. People in glass houses and all that..........!

the video will not be for your blinkered viewing because I feel whatever facts you are presented with , you will choose to ignore

 

[nottskev]

I wait with baited breath for this video! Oh and don't forget the videos of an otter taking babies and "attacking kids" as Steve Pope wrote on his FB page. No doubt the "I'm not looking because he's on my ignore list Crow" will attempt to bully call me all sorts of names claim he's the innocent party :der: whilst he's attempting to twist and say SP didn't write that....... whilst he's not looking..... blah blah blah..........yeah right he didn't! A poor Obfuscation as usual with you btw, to avoid answering the clearly seen question pose eh Crow! mg: Oh and by the way for someone who you are ignoring you are doing a lot of answering to the points I make :smug:
Kev I accused you of nothing if you read it properly, I asked you a series of questions. If you seen them as browbeating and patronising and lacking forensic reading skills then so be it!
As to fish “adopt new habits.... have been driven to vacate some of their usual places,etc,” yes I would entertain that as a possibility had you wrote that. But you didn't you were vague in what you wrote and explained,which is not as your are claiming in the above quote now .... “I don't see why I would be making a mistake in judging that attention from otters is something this little river can ill afford, and an otter can do plenty of damage here without eating itself out of house and home”


I think you are attempting to misrepresent what I actual wrote......... somewhat bad-manneredly in my view. People in glass houses and all that..........!

Your approach to "debating" the issue seems to consist of identifying any post or poster with reservations about the impact of otters on a local fishery, accusing them of ill-informed anti-otter hysteria, and swarming all over their posts without reading them carefully, before replying in a hectoring style that refuses to allow any breathing-space for views that differ from yours.

The points I actually make about otters and their possible impact in specific cases, in this instance a small river recovering from a problem history,sit quite comfortably with the stance taken in the joint Angling Trust/Environment Agency statement, where they had the grace to recognise:

"The Group recognised that there are and would continue to be site-specific problems involving levels of predation which may reduce the amenity and fishery value."

And they go on to say:

"The Group is exploring areas of possible applied research which might be usefully undertaken to enhance knowledge of otters in the wild and their impacts on fisheries with unbalanced fish populations. It would appear that problems are localised to certain rivers, rather than being universal, and it is important to understand why this is the case. Part of that process will be to identify fish populations which are considered to have been adversely affected by otter predation to assess the nature and severity of the problems and to cross-reference this information to historic fisheries data sets. The Environment Agency is to examine a programme of priority fish restocking to restore sustainable fish populations to these fisheries."

If the official proponents of the broader environmentalist approach to otters and fisheries can recognise that there can be problems in some areas, then you might consider that not all anglers who post concerns are necessarily wrong.