For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter

thecrow

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One of the biggest causes of death among otters is other otters , they fight each other for territory.
Its very common among apex predators.

Life expectancy for British otters is half what it should be because of pollutants.

Another major cause of death is cars.

I disagree that nothing predates on Adult otters.
The scientific research is out there but it takes a lot of effort to find and read it.


What is it that does Benny? I cant think of a single native species that is capable of predating on an adult otter, unless wolves have secretly been reintroduced :) otters do get killed on roads by cars but its not predation as I think of it........... Male otters fighting for territory isn't predation............ pollution isn't predation, I am genuinely interested in the research you have found and would like the chance to read it, could you provide a link for it please?
 

The bad one

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Benny you need any references pm me there's thousands to peck the head of Crow with. But you like me and Lutra might go on his ignore list if you disagree with his point of view. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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108831

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Personally I think Anglers should be championing the otters case after all a healthy otter population should indicate a healthy set of river systems with a sustainable fish population.

We should , instead , be campaigning against the myriad other causes of poor water quality and poor fish recruitment - pollution, Dredging , agricultural pesticide run off etc. etc.

Rather than that we have this short sighted knee jerk reaction and a campaign which would change angling from a harmless gentle pastime , in the eyes of many , to a full on bloodsport.

I feel your post is from someone from another world,I cannot champion an animal that has virtually de-barbelled four or five rivers that I know of,that is without the greatly reduced populations of chub and perch which worsens every year,your right in your statements on the health of our rivers,this furry animal the otter is making short work of fish species,wildfowl etc,but because muggins Joe public thinks that's OK we should bow to it to,well not me,I love ALL wildlife,that's birds,mammals,birds,the lot,but like or not we are the reasons otters were almost extinct,along with red kites and many other species,we are in the process of making hedgehogs amongst others extinct,but we continue to f##k everything up,why because we can,even though it will wipe the human race out too. I feel this thread has fully run it's course so I'm leaving it to the bunny huggers....:deadhorse:
 
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no-one in particular

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What is it that does Benny? I cant think of a single native species that is capable of predating on an adult otter, unless wolves have secretly been reintroduced :) otters do get killed on roads by cars but its not predation as I think of it........... Male otters fighting for territory isn't predation............ pollution isn't predation, I am genuinely interested in the research you have found and would like the chance to read it, could you provide a link for it please?

Sorry to butt in Crow and Benny, but these are the two I read during this debate and I find them very enlightening. One has your old mates the EA on it; should cheer you up a bit:) One does acknowledge they can become a problem for fisheries but does not elaborate, cant remember which one though. But there's plenty of stuff on them to think about.

http://www.thepredationactiongroup.co.uk/images/EA_otter_survey_oct10.pdf

Otter – Devon Mammal Group
 
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no-one in particular

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And having read the above, the otter has increased in almost every region by higher and higher increments every year since surveys began, one headline is they are on every river in England. I don't consider they are a red alert species anymore and some small change in the law or relaxing of it in special cases would not affect their further increase. For those that find their living affected by otters and I doubt its that many or will affect that many otters in relation to their well documented and surveyed numbers; they should have consideration or could be given more consideration, otters are established enough now to cope.
The environment, otters etc are important but people, their living, their recreation whatever it is- is important as well, I think in this present age that is sometimes overlooked.
Not looking for any agreement or disagreement but that's it for me.
 
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tigger

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I skimmed through a few random posts on this thread rather than reading it through thouroughly as I knew it would be the same old story.
At the end of the day, predatprs are a natural thing and if there was a shortage of fish in a water then they would be the first to be affected, they would starve or leave long before the fish stocks got to a critical level. Anyone who says there are otters on their waters and the waters are void of fish need to try a different approach to their fishing as they're obviously not using the correct method to catch the fish.

The real threats to fish life in our waters are pollution, water extraction, sewage etc and on top of all that you have the good old anglers who are probably one of the most serious threats to angling!
I've seen a number of celebrity anglers spouting out nonsense about otters and they really don't know their ar$e$ from their elbows. As the old saying goes "a little knowlage is dangerous".
 

thecrow

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I skimmed through a few random posts on this thread rather than reading it through thouroughly as I knew it would be the same old story.
At the end of the day, predatprs are a natural thing and if there was a shortage of fish in a water then they would be the first to be affected, they would starve or leave long before the fish stocks got to a critical level. Anyone who says there are otters on their waters and the waters are void of fish need to try a different approach to their fishing as they're obviously not using the correct method to catch the fish.

The real threats to fish life in our waters are pollution, water extraction, sewage etc and on top of all that you have the good old anglers who are probably one of the most serious threats to angling!
I've seen a number of celebrity anglers spouting out nonsense about otters and they really don't know their ar$e$ from their elbows. As the old saying goes "a little knowlage is dangerous".


Good to see you posting again Ian.
 

rayner

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Excellent
I skimmed through a few random posts on this thread rather than reading it through thouroughly as I knew it would be the same old story.
At the end of the day, predatprs are a natural thing and if there was a shortage of fish in a water then they would be the first to be affected, they would starve or leave long before the fish stocks got to a critical level. Anyone who says there are otters on their waters and the waters are void of fish need to try a different approach to their fishing as they're obviously not using the correct method to catch the fish.

The real threats to fish life in our waters are pollution, water extraction, sewage etc and on top of all that you have the good old anglers who are probably one of the most serious threats to angling!
I've seen a number of celebrity anglers spouting out nonsense about otters and they really don't know their ar$e$ from their elbows. As the old saying goes "a little knowlage is dangerous".

Excellent post.
 

fishface1

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Only 88,000 signature to go and then it can be debated in Parliament...

At least we now know this:

While the Government understand concerns raised about the impact otters may have on fish populations, they are a protected species and there are no plans to introduce methods to control their numbers
The Government understands that there are concerns that otters may have adverse impacts on fish populations and wildlife more generally but we do not accept that the otter ‘has become a detriment to the river environment’.
Mainly as a result of the banning of certain pesticides, otters are now once more present in each county in England. They are an important indicator of the great strides we have made in improving our waterways, with more than 5,300 miles of rivers being improved since 2010. There have been no reintroductions of otters by conservation groups since the late 1990s and the bulk of the recovery of the otter has been through natural re-colonisation.
A healthy otter population results from favourable conditions in the natural environment, including water quality and the availability of prey (including fish), as well as availability of breeding sites. Otters are found at low density, and limit their own populations through territorial activity. Carrying capacity is determined by environmental conditions.
There is no evidence to suggest that otters have a major impact on wildlife as a whole, and although localised impacts could occur where otters have not been previously present for some time, they are a natural part of the freshwater ecosystem and we believe these systems will adapt to the return of the natural top predator.
We do recognise that otters can in some instances impact on still water fisheries, which is why there is provision through the Angling Improvement Fund (AIF), administered by the Angling Trust on the Environment Agency’s behalf, to help deliver improvements including projects to protect fisheries from otter predation through the erection of otter-proof fencing. Further information can be found on the Angling Trust website at: Angling Trust Organisation for Anglers.
Otters are a protected species and it is an offence to harm capture, kill, disturb or injure any animal and/or damage, destroy or obstruct their resting or sheltering places. Therefore any methods of control, including non-lethal methods, would constitute an offence. A licence may be granted by Natural England to catch and move an otter trapped inside a suitably otter-proof fenced fishery to prevent loss of fish stocks.

Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
 

thecrow

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They are an important indicator of the great strides we have made in improving our waterways, with more than 5,300 miles of rivers being improved since 2010.


What an absolute load of testicles, improved to what standard just above p!££ poor?

What this petition has done is raise the awareness of the damage being done to waters that are in no condition to support or allow reproduction of the fish they eat.
 

Peter Jacobs

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Well, the very much expected (and rather obvious) response has been published and is anyone really surprised?

I said at the time, and I'll repeat it here, I truly believe that this petition has shown anglers, in general, in a rather poor light . . . .
 

thecrow

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Then what does a healthy otter population result from?


A healthy sustainable population of any mammal requires that the environment they live in is capable of sustaining not only the predator but also the prey, that is not what we currently have in some parts of the country, our rivers are becoming the place where otters live but not where they hunt, the reason for this imo is that they were already in a poor state and completely unable to withstand the reintroduction of an apex predator to an already dwindling prey population.

Can you hand on heart tell me that our rivers are in a healthy enough condition to sustain otters and their prey? if they are why have they moved onto still waters? I am afraid its no good answering that they are an easier target as otters used to be secretive river creatures afraid of contact with humans they are not any longer and imo they have moved from rivers to other places because the prey in rivers is so depleted.
 

thecrow

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I said at the time, and I'll repeat it here, I truly believe that this petition has shown anglers, in general, in a rather poor light

That seems to bother you quite a bit Peter I don't understand why, the majority of the public couldn't give a toss about anglers or fish they are led by the nose to believe whatever they are told by programmes like springwatch.

I don't care what the public think of angling or anglers.
 

fishface1

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I guess you might do if there was a call to ban angling? Or if it became illegal to fish for “sport”?


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thecrow

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I guess you might do if there was a call to ban angling? Or if it became illegal to fish for “sport”?


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You guess wrong then my friend :) if I wanted to fish I would fish and who would stop me? The EA? that's a laugh they haven't got the money to properly patrol rivers now how would they go on without our fishing tax money? I doubt the government would make it up for them or maybe "other interested parties" would take over and pay what we do now?

Would dog walkers report me to the police? another laughable situation I am afraid, have you tried reporting illegal fishing to the police? they are to busy and undermanned as it is to bother about someone fishing.

Maybe illegal paddlers would rep............... no I don't think so

Fish for sport is what I do and would continue to do again who would stop me? angling being banned or having to kill what I catch wouldnt change what I do one bit and I suspect I wouldnt be the only one, I refuse to allow a noisy minority to rule what I do there is enough of that in this country already I think :untroubled:
 

john r stockburn

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old man river her just keeps rolling on
keep bickering , there should be enough on here that could do something more positive
 
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