How did Carp get to the UK?

[cg74]

Didn't someone claim to have found a Crucian Carp fossil in Britain ?

I don't know anything about fish fossils but crucian carp are indigenous to Britain.

 

[barbelboi]

The Danube flows east to west and into the Black Sea.
Fileanubemap.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I reckon that the answer to the question is in a bucket.

Or even the other way round
Jerry

 

[Philip]

And Europe is connected by land to the Middle East, which in turn is (was) connected by land to Africa. Does that make crocodiles, hyenas and lions indigenous to Britain?

Well, yes !

Way I see it is if anyone is pedantic enough to still try and claim Carp are an Alien species after all this time then I say why stop there...go back even further.

Before the landmasses split the rivers where interconnected and the fish indigenous to those systems. Britain then split away and became an island and then when the Monks or Romans or whoever brought Carp over they were not INtroducing them they where in fact REintroducing them to one of their original indigenous homes.

...Silly, but so is anyone who still considers Carp as foreigners.

---------- Post added at 23:22 ---------- Previous post was at 23:20 ----------

The Danube flows east to west and into the Black Sea.

Irrelevant for the reasons above

 

[cg74]

They used to be.

Are you sure, not that it matters, they aren't anymore.

 

[sam vimes]

Or even the other way round
Jerry

Doh!

Irrelevant for the reasons above

Sorry, I think as theories go, it's pretty thin. Carp may be indigenous to the Danube. That doesn't mean that they were ever present naturally in any of the rivers that flowed from central Europe towards the north and west. I suspect that it's probably fairly safe to say that carp haven't been present naturally in UK waters since before the last ice age. That makes them non-indigenous to me. Quite happy for them to be here though.

 

[cg74]

Well, yes !

Way I see it is if anyone is pedantic enough to still try and claim Carp are an Alien species after all this time then I say why stop there...go back even further.

Before the landmasses split the rivers where interconnected and the fish indigenous to those systems. Britain then split away and became an island and then when the Monks or Romans or whoever brought Carp over they were not INtroducing them they where in fact REintroducing them to one of their original indigenous homes.

...Silly, but so is anyone who still considers Carp as foreigners.

It really doesn't matter what your opinion is, carp (Cyprinus carpio) is not and never will be indigenous, same as barbel in the Severn system. Here take a look at exactly what the definition of indigenous is: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/indigenous?q=indigenous
You could claim they are natives but factually they can never be indigenous!

 

[MRWELL]

In a nutshell...the Monks..they made a habbit of it :wh

 

[beerweasel]

Are you sure, not that it matters, they aren't anymore.

I know it's a long time ago but....

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...2y2pkRIbWrGCLc24g&sig2=_rHXo2l_OENLhlbULYYc4A

 

[cg74]

I know it's a long time ago but....

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...2y2pkRIbWrGCLc24g&sig2=_rHXo2l_OENLhlbULYYc4A

I never saw any reference to crocs or lions, but point taken though. The thing is even if hippos, hyenas, rabbits and carp were once all indigenous species, the fact is they all died out naturally. So if a human brings them back, as is the case with rabbits and Philip is trying to suggest with carp.
They are NOT reintroductions, they are introductions of alien species.

 

[tiinker]

As points of reference on the matter as I said earlier Kevin Cillfords book The history of carp fishing revisited and Dr. Nickolas Giles book freshwater fish of the british isles are worth reading on the matter . Neither make any mention of the carp being a natural specie to the british isles. Although Nick Giles goes into this area in some detail with barbel When the easten flowing rivers of england were tributaries of the Rhine system before the north sea came about. He is of the opinion that the romans were proberly resposible for distributing carp around europe. By the reign of englands king Richard 11 1377-90 carp were recorded in the royal kitchen.

 

[bennygesserit]

I never saw any reference to crocs or lions, but point taken though. The thing is even if hippos, hyenas, rabbits and carp were once all indigenous species, the fact is they all died out naturally. So if a human brings them back, as is the case with rabbits and Philip is trying to suggest with carp.
They are NOT reintroductions, they are introductions of alien species.

Surely the difference between indigenous and introduced is simply a matter of timescale ?

 

[barbelboi]

As points of reference on the matter as I said earlier Kevin Cillfords book The history of carp fishing revisited and Dr. Nickolas Giles book freshwater fish of the british isles are worth reading on the matter . Neither make any mention of the carp being a natural specie to the british isles. Although Nick Giles goes into this area in some detail with barbel When the easten flowing rivers of england were tributaries of the Rhine system before the north sea came about. He is of the opinion that the romans were proberly resposible for distributing carp around europe. By the reign of englands king Richard 11 1377-90 carp were recorded in the royal kitchen.

As stated earlier, I believe all know records point to the mid 14th century at the earliest. There are records that show prior to this time that carp were imported from France for banquets, social occasions, etc.
Jerry

 

[cg74]

Surely the difference between indigenous and introduced is simply a matter of timescale ?

No it's not a matter of timescale; it's how they got to be where they are.

Timescale can be used when determining whether or not a species qualifies as native.

 

[The Monk]

I'm fairly sure it was monks bringing them over for food but was just curious if people knew any more about it.

It wasnt me, honest

The general concensus as always been the Romans, although obviously little has been recorded, the Monks stew ponds are easier to track down, but its very likely the Romans were the first