River Close Season – Is it time for a rethink?

[Peter Jacobs]

[QUOTE=Peter Jacobs;1291391]Quite simply Ray because many anglers who are very worried about losing the Close Season have come together and are contacting a myriad of organisation to solicit their support.

We have this debate almost every year, but this year thanks to the Angling Trust's Martin Salter and some named anglers who seem to have a vested interest, is seemed to make this year's debate far more serious.

We do not intend to sit quietly and watch it disappear due to commercial interests or greed, but that is all I am prepared to say on the matter at the moment.

I will ask again although I don't know why, are these "myriad of other organisations" going to stop other river users doing whatever they normally do on rivers? or is it just anglers they will want to keep away as now?[/QUOTE]

That is a question that is best asked of those organisations.

I have already given an answer regarding the rivers in my region but cannot reply on behalf of other regions or organisations.

 

[thecrow]

I will ask again although I don't know why, are these "myriad of other organisations" going to stop other river users doing whatever they normally do on rivers? or is it just anglers they will want to keep away as now?

That is a question that is best asked of those organisations.

I have already given an answer regarding the rivers in my region but cannot reply on behalf of other regions or organisations.[/QUOTE]










I haven't seen an answer Peter, its a simple question that doesn't require a complicated answer, you are the one that first brought up that you had been in touch with other organisations, are you now saying that you didnt know what their agendas were before getting them involved?

 

[Peter Jacobs]

That is a question that is best asked of those organisations.

I have already given an answer regarding the rivers in my region but cannot reply on behalf of other regions or organisations.

I haven't seen an answer Peter, its a simple question that doesn't require a complicated answer, you are the one that first brought up that you had been in touch with other organisations, are you now saying that you didnt know what their agendas were before getting them involved?[/QUOTE]

We are aware of their agenda with respect to the Close Season.

So far none of those contacted have shown any interest in seeing fishing (coarse or game) stopped completely.

There is only one organisation that, so far, we have avoided and that is the obvious one as they have a poor history w.r.t. angling. For that reason alone I wouldn't recommend engaging them.

 

[thecrow]

I haven't seen an answer Peter, its a simple question that doesn't require a complicated answer, you are the one that first brought up that you had been in touch with other organisations, are you now saying that you didnt know what their agendas were before getting them involved?

We are aware of their agenda with respect to the Close Season.

So far none of those contacted have shown any interest in seeing fishing (coarse or game) stopped completely.

There is only one organisation that, so far, we have avoided and that is the obvious one as they have a poor history w.r.t. angling. For that reason alone I wouldn't recommend engaging them.[/QUOTE]






You should have been a politician Peter I give up as I do not think I will get a straight answer.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

You should have been a politician Peter {Smile} I give up as I do not think I will get a straight answer.

. . . . Well now, you might say that, but I couldn't possibly comment . . . .

[insert winkey thing > > > > HERE]

 

[Ray Wood 1]

The debate is set to go on throughout this CS so we should be able to hear the pros and cons during that time.

We will no doubt have some fun along the way, and see dummies thrown from prams. It will be hard going for some and many will fall by the wayside (except the lurker who spends 18 hours day glued to this site).mg:

Both sides can sing “We shall overcome” one side however will be wrong, two wrongs can never make a right, well not in my world but the celeb anglers who are hard up don’t live where I live.hno:

Now it is time to reflect on a man who gave his life so that we could have eternity, he took on our sins and died on the cross did he sacrifice himself for nothing?

Regards
Ray

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

[

I will ask again although I don't know why, are these "myriad of other organisations" going to stop other river users doing whatever they normally do on rivers? or is it just anglers they will want to keep away as now?

Well said Crow,

It is clear to see the Greedy Anti all year party have NO evidence that angling will harm rivers if fished all year. So they are calling on others who have nothing to do with fishing to help them out.

The Trout boys want it all to themselves, and we all know that. Angling has moved on, times have changed, and the rivers need anglers on them all year to help.

The bird watchers don't stop watching when the birds are in nest with eegs and chicks, and do no harm. The same should apply to angling, because apart from the trout boys, who smash their fish over the head, most anglers have the fish welfare at heart.

The greed is not coming from those who want the close season to end, just the opposite, its coming from those who want to keep it.

Get rid of the close season, its out of date, if anglers don't want to fish and retain a close season for themselves, then fine, they have a choice.

---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------

Now it is time to reflect on a man who gave his life so that we could have eternity, he took on our sins and died on the cross did he sacrifice himself for nothing?

Regards
Ray

Ray,
Forum rules NO RELIGION, its all BS anyway.

regards

Ray.

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Well said Crow,

It is clear to see the Greedy Anti all year party have NO evidence that angling will harm rivers if fished all year. So they are calling on others who have nothing to do with fishing to help them out.

.
The greed is not coming from those who want the close season to end, just the opposite, its coming from those who want to keep it.

.

---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------



Ray,
Forum rules NO RELIGION, its all BS anyway.

regards

Ray.

Yet another post made in anger, where is your evidence that all year fishing won’t hurt our rivers? Please don’t quote still waters as being it, most still waters are stocked on a yearly basis and most clubs impose a full CS it is mostly the commercial puddles that open all year.

Pray tell me what I gain as what you term a “one of those” who want to keep the CS? What is it I gain? Money, commercial interest or that I sell more tackle? I gain nothing by there being a CS that’s for sure.

You want the CS abolished you have to do what you can to achieve that by what ever means at your disposal. Please don’t condemn others who want to keep it for doing the same.

If I have over stepped the rules the mod’s will no doubt sanction me, I did not know the BS was a religious outfit when did that happen?mg:

With respect
Ray

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------

Well its all BS anyway.

regards

Ray.

Ray, I know exactly what you mean by BS, it is mostly spoken by those who have no real argument or by those who have changed (had a rethink) minds to justify themselves. BS has been used to deceive and no doubt will be used in that way from here to eternity.

BS has been spoken by many, even I (hard to believe I know) have spoken or used BS at times MP’s use it all the time (example expresses) it’s part and parcel of this wonderful world we live in.

Regards
Ray

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

Yet another post made in anger,where is your evidence that all year fishing won’t hurt our rivers? Please don’t quote still waters as being it, most still waters are stocked on a yearly basis and most clubs impose a full CS it is mostly the commercial puddles that open all year.

Pray tell me what I gain as what you term a “one of those” who want to keep the CS? What is it I gain? Money, commercial interest or that I sell more tackle? I gain nothing by there being a CS that’s for sure.

You want the CS abolished you have to do what you can to achieve that by what ever means at your disposal. Please don’t condemn others who want to keep it for doing the same.

If I have over stepped the rules the mod’s will no doubt sanction me, I did not know the BS was a religious outfit when did that happen?mg:

With respect
Ray

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------



Ray, I know exactly what you mean by BS, it is mostly spoken by those who have no real argument or by those who have changed (had a rethink) minds to justify themselves. BS has been used to deceive and no doubt will be used in that way from here to eternity.

BS has been spoken by many, even I (hard to believe I know) have spoken or used BS at times MP’s use it all the time (example expresses) it’s part and parcel of this wonderful world we live in.

Regards
Ray

Not in anger at all Ray, I see you didn't read my post correctly :wh, where did i say anything about commercial gain or money ??? yet another twist to try and turn the tables.

As for clubs keeping the closed season on still waters, i don't know of any around hear that do, or any that stock their waters every year.

If someone wants to change their mind it's not BS. Never changed where you fish, changed your tackle, changed your car ???

BS comes in many forms as you say, plenty from those wanting to retain the close season, and still NO Sound science from mike b. I think he meant, Sound of Silence.

regards
Ray

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Ray, you are missing the prime point.

The last time the EA studied the situation they stated loud and clear that: there will be no change to the Close Season on rivers until and unless scientific studies prove it to not be harmful.

Now, given that the EA have made that statement then it follows all logic and educated reason to see that it is for those in opposition to provide the "science"

As the old Meerkat says . . . . . . . Simples!

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Not in anger at all Ray, I see you didn't read my post correctly :wh, where did i say anything about commercial gain or money ??? yet another twist to try and turn the tables.

As for clubs keeping the closed season on still waters, i don't know of any around hear that do, or any that stock their waters every year.

If someone wants to change their mind it's not BS. Never changed where you fish, changed your tackle, changed your car ???

BS comes in many forms as you say, plenty from those wanting to retain the close season, and still NO Sound science from mike b. I think he meant, Sound of Silence.

regards
Ray

You obviously missed the winky emotion I inserted then Ray, of course I have changed lines,cars and where I fish it had little to do with changing my mind though.

Of course changing of minds is not BS my reference was to the BS used to try and convince others that they had reasons other than commercial or financial gain for doing so.

You stated that “The greed is not coming from those who want the close season to end, just the opposite, its coming from those who want to keep it.”

As I am one who wants to keep it that’s why I asked you how was I greedy and what do I gain from keeping the CS. Greed is when one want's more not less (Oliver Twist) "Please sir can I have some more sir"

Others on the side of abolishing it have everything to gain besides all year fishing. You know the ones “the others” along with the “celebrity anglers”. Now tell me what I and those you call greedy have to gain apart from retaining the CS?

Your serve, oh and to keep the CS no scientific evidence or sound evidence is required

Regards
Ray

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

You obviously missed the winky emotion I inserted then Ray, of course I have changed lines,cars and where I fish it had little to do with changing my mind though.

Of course changing of minds is not BS my reference was to the BS used to try and convince others that they had reasons other than commercial or financial gain for doing so.

You stated that “The greed is not coming from those who want the close season to end, just the opposite, its coming from those who want to keep it.”

As I am one who wants to keep it that’s why I asked you how was I greedy and what do I gain from keeping the CS. Greed is when one want's more not less (Oliver Twist) "Please sir can I have some more sir"

Others on the side of abolishing it have everything to gain besides all year fishing. You know the ones “the others” along with the “celebrity anglers”. Now tell me what I and those you call greedy have to gain apart from retaining the CS?

Your serve, oh and to keep the CS no scientific evidence or sound evidence is required

Regards
Ray

By retaining the close season your stopping others from fishing. Keeping the rivers to the Trout boys, theres the greed, and you still haven't shown where i said anything about commercial interest and Money.

If you don't need scientific and sound evidence, why does mick b keep banging on about it, yet ,never coming up with any ??

I don't care who wants to retain the close season, if thats what they want, i am fine by that, it doesn't make them, or you a bad person does it. Just as i don't care who wants to fish all year round, it doesn't make them a bad person either,( mg: what is a so called celebrity ?? cos i don't know any ).

Open all waters all year, then all anglers have the choice if they want to fish or not, then there isn't any greed.

30-15, your serve

regards

Ray

---------- Post added at 19:27 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------

Ray, you are missing the prime point.

The last time the EA studied the situation they stated loud and clear that: there will be no change to the Close Season on rivers until and unless scientific studies prove it to not be harmful.

Now, given that the EA have made that statement then it follows all logic and educated reason to see that it is for those in opposition to provide the "science"

As the old Meerkat says . . . . . . . Simples!

Peter,

The last time, things change and move on.

Strange because if you look back, the science shows that since the close season came in, our rivers have done nothing but go down hill ever since. Fish stocks being the worst hit.

simples.

 

[Ray Wood 1]

By retaining the close season your stopping others from fishing. Keeping the rivers to the Trout boys, theres the greed, and you still haven't shown where i said anything about commercial interest and Money.

If you don't need scientific and sound evidence, why does mick b keep banging on about it, yet ,never coming up with any ??

I don't care who wants to retain the close season, if thats what they want, i am fine by that, it doesn't make them, or you a bad person does it. Just as i don't care who wants to fish all year round, it doesn't make them a bad person either,( mg: what is a so called celebrity ?? cos i don't know any ).

Open all waters all year, then all anglers have the choice if they want to fish or not, then there isn't any greed.

30-15, your serve

regards

Ray

---------- Post added at 19:27 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------



Peter,

The last time, things change and move on.

Strange because if you look back, the science shows that since the close season came in, our rivers have done nothing but go down hill ever since. Fish stocks being the worst hit.

simples.

You cannot be serious the ball was out 40-15

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------

By retaining the close season your stopping others from fishing. Keeping the rivers to the Trout boys, theres the greed, and you still haven't shown where i said anything about commercial interest and Money.

If you don't need scientific and sound evidence, why does mick b keep banging on about it, yet ,never coming up with any ??

I don't care who wants to retain the close season, if thats what they want, i am fine by that, it doesn't make them, or you a bad person does it. Just as i don't care who wants to fish all year round, it doesn't make them a bad person either,( mg: what is a so called celebrity ?? cos i don't know any ).

Open all waters all year, then all anglers have the choice if they want to fish or not, then there isn't any greed.

30-15, your serve

regards

Ray

---------- Post added at 19:27 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------



Peter,

The last time, things change and move on.

Strange because if you look back, the science shows that since the close season came in, our rivers have done nothing but go down hill ever since. Fish stocks being the worst hit.

simples.

So dredging water abstraction pollution chemical discharges had nothing to do with the decline in our rivers it was all down to the CS. Hell you’ll be blaming Kilroy next “cos he was here”mg:

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

So dredging water abstraction pollution chemical discharges had nothing to do with the decline in our rivers it was all down to the CS.

Don't forget predation, that's the BIG one. The future potential threat is from hydro installations. I think what Clarkey is trying to get at is that the CS hasn't helped much to save the rivers over all this time. I can't remember who of your gang of four (there's a new term! ) mentioned it or was it Peter Reading, that the quality of our rivers is deteriorating, or words to that effect.

Ask the EA about the quality of our rivers and fish stocks and it's never been better, but they would say that, wouldn't they?


Q. (applies to all pro CS posters) - Just as a matter of interest, what rivers do you fish or have knowledge of and what river's trust or consultative do you serve on?

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Don't forget predation, that's the BIG one. The future potential threat is from hydro installations. I think what Clarkey is trying to get at is that the CS hasn't helped much to save the rivers over all this time. I can't remember who of your gang of four (there's a new term! ) mentioned it or was it Peter Reading, that the quality of our rivers is deteriorating, or words to that effect.

Ask the EA about the quality of our rivers and fish stocks and it's never been better, but they would say that, wouldn't they?


Q. (applies to all pro CS posters) - Just as a matter of interest, what rivers do you fish or have knowledge of and what river's trust or consultative do you serve on?

Jeff, I think you will find he said,

“Strange because if you look back, the science shows that since the close season came in, our rivers have done nothing but go down hill ever since. Fish stocks being the worst hit.”

Now he definitely states that science shows that our rivers have gone down hill since the CS came in. So I think the gist of Ray’s post is that if the CS had not been introduced that our rivers would be in great shape.

No need to try and guess what he is saying its right there. Strange I have never read any science that states our river’s decline is due to there being a three month break in fishing. I would be interested in reading this science, as I expect would many others.

Why are you only asking Pro CS posters what consultative or rivers trust they sit on?

Regards
Ray

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Don't forget predation, that's the BIG one. The future potential threat is from hydro installations. I think what Clarkey is trying to get at is that the CS hasn't helped much to save the rivers over all this time. I can't remember who of your gang of four (there's a new term! ) mentioned it or was it Peter Reading, that the quality of our rivers is deteriorating, or words to that effect.

Ask the EA about the quality of our rivers and fish stocks and it's never been better, but they would say that, wouldn't they?


Q. (applies to all pro CS posters) - Just as a matter of interest, what rivers do you fish or have knowledge of and what river's trust or consultative do you serve on?

Well Jeff, having the Close Season certainly has not done any harm now, has it. As the other Peter said earlier, sort out Predation and Over-Abstraction and you will have as much river fishing as you want.

The position of the EA is perfectly clear, but it seems that it is always circumvented by those who wish to see the Close Season abolished, I wonder why.

Regarding the "gang of four" you'd be surprised how quickly that number is growing, just because only 4 are posting on this page don't be fooled into thinking (or is that belittling?) the number.

As to which rivers do I fish, well, the Hampshire Avon, the Nadder, the Stour, the Itchen and the Test as well as the Thames (not as often I grant) and before you ask, no I don't fish for Coarse fish during the close Season at all.

Regarding "Which river's trust or consultative" the answer is none at all as my time is very limited, even more so now that we are working to solicit support from other concerned organisations.

Mind you, when I retire I do intend to invest a lot more time on things like river's trusts and consultative groups.

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Peter,
The question directed solely at Pro CS supporters was obviously a loaded question (I wonder who put that bullet in the gun) we are 52 pages into this debate and no one has asked a question like that so far. hno:

You are quite correct “the gang of four” is far larger and will keep growing as there are a vast number of anglers who want the CS retained in it’s current form.:thumbs:

Happy Easter to one and all, and that includes the anti CS lobby except the one

Ray

 

[sam vimes]

having the Close Season certainly has not done any harm now, has it.

Snag here, you can't prove that any more than those that would see the back of the closed season can prove that removing it would do no harm. The mid-nineties EA/NRA fisheries report on abolishing the closed season suggested, even for rivers, that removal of the CS would probably do no harm to fish stocks. Martin Salter has admitted that this was the case and that he used his then position as an MP to help retain the closed season on rivers in spite of the EA/NRA report.

The whole concept of the closed season doing any good, or at least no harm, is a huge assumption that few seem prepared to question. That doesn't seem to stop people carrying on as if it's an established and proven fact.

I can well understand the need for scientific study before the closed season is abolished. However, retention of it should also be questioned. I don't understand why the pro-CS protagonists are quite so keen to run off to make dubious allies if they so convinced that the CS is built on sound footings. There's also quite a few people that are going to look very foolish if it turns out that the closed season does actually do more harm than good. I'll accept that it's unlikely, but still a possibility.

 

[thecrow]

Snag here, you can't prove that any more than those that would see the back of the closed season can prove that removing it would do no harm. The mid-nineties EA/NRA fisheries report on abolishing the closed season suggested, even for rivers, that removal of the CS would probably do no harm to fish stocks. Martin Salter has admitted that this was the case and that he used his then position as an MP to help retain the closed season on rivers in spite of the EA/NRA report.

The whole concept of the closed season doing any good, or at least no harm, is a huge assumption that few seem prepared to question. That doesn't seem to stop people carrying on as if it's an established and proven fact.

I can well understand the need for scientific study before the closed season is abolished. However, retention of it should also be questioned. I don't understand why the pro-CS protagonists are quite so keen to run off to make dubious allies if they so convinced that the CS is built on sound footings. There's also quite a few people that are going to look very foolish if it turns out that the closed season does actually do more harm than good. I'll accept that it's unlikely, but still a possibility.

Neither do I Sam, I doubt any of them have anything to do with angling and as who they are hasn't been revealed why they would want to support keeping anglers off the banks for 3 months when others are still allowed to be on the rivers.

 

[Paul Boote]

For me, not fishing in the coarse Close Season has always been about fairplay and aesthetics, about not wanting to catch creatures when they're scr-e-wing and / or looking pretty bloated and generally beaten-up as a result. Double-figure spawner tench or mega carp or barbs? Pass. I'd rather catch the real thing. We're a self-obsessed greedy lot.