River Close Season – Is it time for a rethink?

[Peter Jacobs]

I don't understand why the pro-CS protagonists are quite so keen to run off to make dubious allies if they so convinced that the CS is built on sound footings.

The opposite question is, of course, if the anti Close season anglers were not so concerned that they are going to lose then why do they keep on banging that particular drum.

Repeat it as often as you like, Crow, Jeff, Sam et al, but it is in motion now and not likely to stop. But, remember as well who started the debate in the first place . . . . . .

---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------

For me, not fishing in the coarse Close Season has always been about fairplay and aesthetics, about not wanting to catch creatures when they're scr-e-wing and / or looking pretty bloated and generally beaten-up as a result. Double-figure spawner tench or mega carp or barbs? Pass. I'd rather catch the real thing. We're a self-obsessed greedy lot.

I take exactly the same approach Paul.

I have yet to see a reply from the anti side as to why on earth anyone wants to catch a gravid or spawned-out fish . . . . . . . . because that is what will happen if the rivers are opened up to all year round fishing.

 

[thecrow]

The opposite question is, of course, if the anti Close season anglers were not so concerned that they are going to lose then why do they keep on banging that particular drum.

Repeat it as often as you like, Crow, Jeff, Sam et al, but it is in motion now and not likely to stop. But, remember as well who started the debate in the first place . . . . . .

---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------



I take exactly the same approach Paul.

I have yet to see a reply from the anti side as to why on earth anyone wants to catch a gravid or spawned-out fish . . . . . . . . because that is what will happen if the rivers are opened up to all year round fishing.

That's because nobody has said that's what they want to do.

I have caught gravid fish before the c/s during the c/s and after the c/s, anyone that hypocritically fishes still waters whilst supporting the c/s on rivers is as likely to catch a gravid fish doing that as a river angler.,

How about naming these other organisations that have been involved in this not one has anything to do with angling would be my thoughts.

Whats "in motion"

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

As the other Peter said earlier, sort out Predation and Over-Abstraction and you will have as much river fishing as you want.

You might find that it was Christian's (Chav's) remark. However, it is with that in mind that I spend much of my free time fighting against the greater evils of pollutions and abstraction problems, together with Hydro (which is why I serve on the EA's sub-committee on hydro development - anti, in my case) predation problems, invasive species, and even the removal of fishing rights on rivers. For me, the close season as was defined has no impact nor benefit in this day and age and the sooner it goes so that local people can do a far better job, the better for fish life in general.

Regarding the "gang of four"

There's more than a ring about that title. You'll remember the original Gang of Four and the incredible new party they created with modern thinking ideas, you may not agree though. They allied themselves to what they thought was a similar thinking (not so) group who in 1987 proposed a merger and so killed off all modern political thinking. Beware that tying fishing matters up with other outside groups doesn't end up killing off angling.

Example: in 1997 the River Thames Society asked our club if we could help restore some 150 yards of bank popular with anglers that we had rented the fishing rights from for years. We helped and everyone involved did a fine job. Two years later the RTS turned round and BANNED ANGLING! Those groups that appear supportive and very friendly, just like the con-man, may have ulterior motives and you're feeding them.

The question directed solely at Pro CS supporters was obviously a loaded question

Of course it was loaded. You four are the ones bleating on about how much you CARE about the environment, the fish and fishing. So cards on the table - what do you actively do other than whinge about keeping the CS? Peter has graciously answered - nothing. Fair play.

He has also stated, and I know this to be a fact, that he doesn't fish anywhere in the CS, although I hear he is booked on a match that is taking place soon. I trust it will be just as a spectator. :wh

---------- Post added at 11:10 ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 ----------

I have yet to see a reply from the anti side as to why on earth anyone wants to catch a gravid or spawned-out fish . . . . . . . . because that is what will happen if the rivers are opened up to all year round fishing.

Yes, it happened to me last year, last Sunday in June - IN SEASON. I have already explained, I wasn't fishing for barbel, but a spawned out fish (spawned within the week before) picked up the bait intended for a chub. So if anything it is NOT LONG ENOUGH.

Also, should we fish for any species that is carrying eggs? Because about a months after spawning females of many species are already forming eggs ready for next year. It the nature of survival and things, females are always productive. So should the close season be from July 1st until June 30th? Keep talking to your 'other' groups and that's what you might end up with - everywhere, not just rivers!

 

[sam vimes]

The opposite question is, of course, if the anti Close season anglers were not so concerned that they are going to lose then why do they keep on banging that particular drum.

Repeat it as often as you like, Crow, Jeff, Sam et al, but it is in motion now and not likely to stop. But, remember as well who started the debate in the first place . . . . . .

---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------



I take exactly the same approach Paul.

I have yet to see a reply from the anti side as to why on earth anyone wants to catch a gravid or spawned-out fish . . . . . . . . because that is what will happen if the rivers are opened up to all year round fishing.

Except the pikers, and perhaps the late season perch, which somehow seems perfectly acceptable. It also handily ignores the fact that those of us further north, with the existing closed season, are very likely to encounter gravid chub or barbel when the season opens. If we are lucky, by June 16th they'll be spawned out and battered. All that's before you consider "trout" fishing with worms, which despite the protestations, is perfectly legal and predates the current closed season, and therefore any great tradition, by some margin (remember we had the "stolen fortnight" until 1995/1996). I've no desire to catch gravid or battered post spawning fish, probably why I tend to avoid early season river fishing. It does help that the fishing is generally poor in June and July, probably because they are still spawning. The fact that I do avoid early season indicates that your beloved one size fits all closed season really doesn't fit all very well. You are actually trying to preserve something that may work for you and the fish in your rivers but is doing exactly what you don't wish to see on mine.mg:

 

[chub_on_the_block]

For me, not fishing in the coarse Close Season has always been about fairplay and aesthetics, about not wanting to catch creatures when they're scr-e-wing and / or looking pretty bloated and generally beaten-up as a result. Double-figure spawner tench or mega carp or barbs? Pass. I'd rather catch the real thing. We're a self-obsessed greedy lot.

This was my position too, until the closed season was abolished on stillwaters. Nowadays we seem to live in a largely traditions-free world where, for example, shops are no longer closed on Sundays because it is actually better that way - even though we have lost something in the process of changing it. As Sam and others have pointed out - there is no scientific proof that a CS is required to protect fish populations and this tradition should now go away too.

Others may be happy to go off fluff-chucking for 3 months during the CS or to sit behind bolt rigs or long poles on a carp water, so why cant i go out and trot a float down the stream?. Sadly the one stillwater fish that i would target in the summer - tench - are only protected by a full closed season on one water that i fish. On the others they are already hard to catch by the end of May.

The CS should be determined by those who own fisheries or the fishing rights to sections of river as they will be in the best position to know whether it is needed or not and what form it should take. If my club had 5 miles or rarely fished river on its books there should be no concern at all about having year-round angling on it.

 

[thecrow]

Will the pro c/s side please reveal who these other organisations are? or is it a secret?

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Of course it was loaded. You four are the ones bleating on about how much you CARE about the environment, the fish and fishing. So cards on the table - what do you actively do other than whinge about keeping the CS? Peter has graciously answered - nothing. Fair play.

Jeff,
What I do for fishing is my business, I have no need to use it to give weight to any questions I might ask or be asked in any debate. Your question was loaded as you admit, loaded in away that was designed to belittle anyone who states that do not serve on any consultative or rivers trusts.

Try asking all participants of this debate the same question, for me and I will be straight with you I will treat it with the contempt it deserves.

You are clearly losing the plot, and stamping your feet like a little child because you can’t at present get your own way (abolish the CS).

You have the AT to try to achieve that for you, a trust that represents a minority of UK anglers do you seriously expect the majority to sit back and allow a minority decided the fate of the CS?

I am not a member of the AT, I know it has done and is doing some good work so I don’t condemn it out of hand expect on the CS issue. As a non member of the trust I have had the words “No pay - no say” quoted at me.

So does that mean that non members of the trusts comments in this debate will be ignored? Does it also mean that non AT members have no say in what happens regarding angling matters that affect all UK anglers?

Does it mean that an organisation that does not have the full backing of UK anglers has to right to be so arrogant as to say to me and every other non member YOU don’t count?

The Crow states that interested parties that might support the retention of the CS have not been named, I respectfully suggest that neither has Martin Salter or the AT named anyone.

All we know is that,

“it has also caused others to ask us to re-ignite the river close season debate and to make formal approaches to the Environment Agency and to government.”

Added to that he names two AT members one for the CS Keith Arthur and one against the retention of the CS Dave Harrell, and states that Steve Pope has announced his position has shifted (again).

So Martin thinks it’s fair to say that the ground is shifting in angling.

So there you have it folks, this debate was facilitated because Steve Pope’s position has shifted and Dave Harrell wants to abolish the CS not forgetting the “the others” alluded to by Martin and Keith Arthur want’s to keep it.

Quite laughable.

Keep pecking Crow, you’ll have no beak left at this rate.

Regards
Ray

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

You cannot be serious the ball was out 40-15

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------


So dredging water abstraction pollution chemical discharges had nothing to do with the decline in our rivers it was all down to the CS. Hell you’ll be blaming Kilroy next “cos he was here”mg:

Ray,

mg: Another twist, yet again on what i said. You know as well as i do, that anglers on the bank report, pollution, chemical discharges, etc etc. I didn't say that the close season was the sole reason for the river decline at all, but nice try.

Game, Set and Match


So as the ANTI all year anglers keep banging on about the close season, and what harm is going to be done if it is not retained, PROVE IT.

Facts remain, the rivers have gone down hill since the CS has been in place, and if anglers had still been on the banks, then some, just some of the pollution etc etc, may have been reported before to much harm was done. But as they weren't, well, we see the results today.

I hear it time and time again, fish welfare, fish welfare, yet the welfare for our fish went when the CS came in, as anglers are not about to keep an eye on the rivers.

The rivers will not be crowded out with anglers for all year fishing, and thats something else the CS lobby know, but they like to play on it.

I also remember another member from this forum who wanted to retain the close season, and stated he never fished the close season. Very funny, as he used to go to a local charity, and FISH in the closed season. Before anyone one says, well it was for charity, if he was so sure about the CS, he would have just donated his fishing money to the charity.

Now whats that Ray Wood says about people changing their minds ????, seems like more and more are seeing the light.

regards
Ray

 

[sam vimes]

Will the pro c/s side please reveal who these other organisations are? or is it a secret?

See page 13, posts 126 and 129 for some pointers.

 

[Peter Jacobs]

He has also stated, and I know this to be a fact, that he doesn't fish anywhere in the CS, although I hear he is booked on a match that is taking place soon. I trust it will be just as a spectator.

I was booked in for that match until I realised the actual date. Typically that match was fished after the Close season.

My word, you are well informed seeing as that match is only advertised on a closed forum . . . . . . . . . . . how is "shhhusssh you-know-who" these days?

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Ray,

mg: Another twist, yet again on what i said. You know as well as i do, that anglers on the bank report, pollution, chemical discharges, etc etc. I didn't say that the close season was the sole reason for the river decline at all, but nice try.

Game, Set and Match

"Strange because if you look back, the science shows that since the close season came in, our rivers have done nothing but go down hill ever since."

That's what you said, looks like it reads what it says on the tin

Twisting things, not me My Lord statement read as written

I win by default

have a nice day now
Regards
Ray

 

[stu_the_blank]

why on earth anyone wants to catch a gravid or spawned-out fish

I'm probably going to regret getting involved but....we all do anyway. Pike and Perch are definately gravid in Feb and March, why are Barbel bigger at the back end of the season? Couldn't be big females holding spawn? Answers on a post card please. Carp and Tench very often spawn after June 16th and so are spawned out in the 'season'. I've caught many chub over the years in July that looked like they had just spawned (I haven't fished for them until the Autumn for many years as a result).

I believe that the close season was originally brought in to stop fishing (with nets) for Roach (they were a food source then) over the Spawning gravels, something that would be illegal now anyway.

This thread isn't going to change anybodies mind, that is obvious. With one or two exceptions it's full of opinion, not fact.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that proper management of Fisheries is the only way to protect fish and my view is that is better formulated by the people managing the water than by an arbitary Close Season. The lake I manage has a close season that suits it's needs and we can control fishing at other times if the need arrises. That said, I do believe that all waters benefit from a break, a countrywide, catch all (excuse the pun) period is simply not going to suit all regions and waters.

Take cover!!!

Stu

 

[Peter Jacobs]

Will the pro c/s side please reveal who these other organisations are? or is it a secret?

. . . . it is quite amazing when you do just a day or two or six of research at just how many organisations are directly or indirectly associated with our rivers and adjoining water meadows etc, just about every group for every constituent part of our diverse flora and fauna.

The list is now at just over 100 . . . . . .

 

[thecrow]

. . . . it is quite amazing when you do just a day or two or six of research at just how many organisations are directly or indirectly associated with our rivers and adjoining water meadows etc, just about every group for every constituent part of our diverse flora and fauna.

The list is now at just over 100 . . . . . .

So it is a secret then, couldn't be because none of them are remotely involved in angling could it?

 

[Peter Jacobs]

So it is a secret then, couldn't be because none of them are remotely involved in angling could it?

For goodness sake Mr Crow . . . . . . how many times do you need to be reminded that we (anglers) are not the only people interested in our rivers and the flora and fauna that are integral to them?

To think that anglers are the only people to be consulted over the close Season is the height of arrogance on our part.

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

"Strange because if you look back, the science shows that since the close season came in, our rivers have done nothing but go down hill ever since."

That's what you said, looks like it reads what it says on the tin

Twisting things, not me My Lord statement read as written

I win by default

have a nice day now
Regards
Ray

Yes thats right it does, but it doesn't say, nor did i anywhere else, that the close season is the sole reason for the decline in the rivers.

Twisted words by yourself backfired again,

You lost when you started

---------- Post added at 17:08 ---------- Previous post was at 16:59 ----------

For goodness sake Mr Crow . . . . . . how many times do you need to be reminded that we (anglers) are not the only people interested in our rivers and the flora and fauna that are integral to them?

To think that anglers are the only people to be consulted over the close Season is the height of arrogance on our part.

This is about our closed season, the anglers, nothing to do with who else does what on, or to the rivers.

Your only trying to get help from the other groups because more and more anglers are beginning to see the light.

If Anglers vote to abolish the close season, it's a vote to fish, not pick flowers.

Tell me, are these the same people who introduced the Hogweed to our river banks ??? If so, angling needs them like a hole in the head.

 

[thecrow]

For goodness sake Mr Crow . . . . . . how many times do you need to be reminded that we (anglers) are not the only people interested in our rivers and the flora and fauna that are integral to them?

To think that anglers are the only people to be consulted over the close Season is the height of arrogance on our part.

I don't need reminding that you pro c/s lot wont say who these others that have been involved are, why is that.

Makes me very suspicious about just who the pro side have climbed into bed with when they wont say who they are.

We (anglers) are the only ones affected by the c/s, not walkers, not boaters not stick throwers, not bird watchers, not anyone else just anglers.

No arrogance is involved in only anglers being involved in what happens about the c/s, the arrogance is with those that believe that their argument is so weak that they have to involve other none angling organisations in it to back them up, and then point blank refuse to name them, is that because they have something to hide?

---------- Post added at 17:40 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------

Yes thats right it does, but it doesn't say, nor did i anywhere else, that the close season is the sole reason for the decline in the rivers.

Twisted words by yourself backfired again,

You lost when you started

---------- Post added at 17:08 ---------- Previous post was at 16:59 ----------





This is about our closed season, the anglers, nothing to do with who else does what on, or to the rivers.

Your only trying to get help from the other groups because more and more anglers are beginning to see the light.

If Anglers vote to abolish the close season, it's a vote to fish, not pick flowers.

Tell me, are these the same people who introduced the Hogweed to our river banks ??? If so, angling needs them like a hole in the head.[/QUOTE]



We will never know Ray, as they wont tell us who they are, I wonder why?

 

[Ray Wood 1]

Yes thats right it does, but it doesn't say, nor did i anywhere else, that the close season is the sole reason for the decline in the rivers.

Twisted words by yourself backfired again,

You lost when you started

Ray,
You posted

“Strange because if you look back, the science shows that since the close season came in, our rivers have done nothing but go down hill ever since. Fish stocks being the worst hit.”

Yes that’s right it say’s that since the close season came in our rivers have gone down hill, so where did I get anything wrong regarding that statement?

Here’s what I actually posted with no twisting of words, hno:

“So dredging water abstraction pollution chemical discharges had nothing to do with the decline in our rivers it was all down to the CS. Hell you’ll be blaming Kilroy next “cos he was here”

You then come back with,

“Yes thats right it does, but it doesn't say, nor did i anywhere else, that the close season is the sole reason for the decline in the rivers.”

Where did I say that you said that it was the sole reason for our rivers decline? Come on Ray, you've been done like a kipper and now you want to keep mugging yourself off by accusing me of twisting words.

You’ll be calling me greedy, dogmatic or belligerent soon but no matter, now lets see how you twist this post. I doubt I would ever lose any debate with you Ray and I say that respectfully.

Change the meaning of your posts or add to there meaning later as suits your needs no problem for me.

Regards
Ray

 

[Jeff Woodhouse]

What I do for fishing is my business, I have no need to use it to give weight to any questions I might ask or be asked in any debate.

I'm afraid that's the sort of cop-out answer I might have expected. People who do some representative work don't usually mind talking about it and using the knowledge they gain. I wouldn't have belittled you or anyone, like I'd said to Peter "fair enough", at least then you're being honest.

that match is only advertised on a closed forum

No such thing on the world wide web, some stuff will always leak out! I'd heard also that "the Wallet" had been bad, but is now improving, I'm pleased for him.

how is "shhhusssh you-know-who" these days?

If it's who I think it is, OK. Still getting around.

Pike and Perch are definately gravid in Feb and March, why are Barbel bigger at the back end of the season?

Most of the year, in fact.

believe that the close season was originally brought in to stop fishing (with nets) for Roach

But no. It was always because of matchmen, the only sort of fishing that took place then, having to kill everything they caught for it to be weighed. The catch was then taken home either for the table, the chickens, or the dog. Even as late as the 1930's fish were killed in great numbers to take home.

are these the same people who introduced the Hogweed to our river banks ?

And Jap Knotweed, Himalayan Balsam, and who put floating pennywort into the rivers? Or crayfish? And who the hell introduced Canada geese? Thank you all you interfering organisations.

 

[Ray Daywalker Clarke]

Jeff, I think you will find he said,

“Strange because if you look back, the science shows that since the close season came in, our rivers have done nothing but go down hill ever since. Fish stocks being the worst hit.”

Now he definitely states that science shows that our rivers have gone down hill since the CS came in. So I think the gist of Ray’s post is that if the CS had not been introduced that our rivers would be in great shape.

No need to try and guess what he is saying its right there. Strange I have never read any science that states our river’s decline is due to there being a three month break in fishing. I would be interested in reading this science, as I expect would many others.


Regards
Ray

Well, Well, what have you said above Ray. mg: All your words, i don't need to change or add anything. With respect Ray, i would never be on the back foot with yourself. Here you have twisted what i have said, and all can see.

Seems playing twister isn't your game Ray

As i said, game, set and match.

Regards
Ray.

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------

Well at the end of the day, The Anti all year party haven't come up with any sound reason, or science why the close season should remain, WHY ???? because there is none, simple.


We will be here next year, thats if things haven't changed, which i doubt for now.

In the meantime, others will use the rivers while we can't. Wildlife will go short on vital food it needs for its young. Pollution will go un-reported quicker, and birdwatchers and walkers will carry on as normal. Many leaving litter, that we anglers clean up after them.

I won't forget the fact that the boating holiday season is getting into full swing.

I am off to pick some flowers, jump up and down on all the vegetation, throw a few plastic bags in the bushes, and i won't forget to have a dump while i am there. Almost forgot, i need to get some Hogweed to plant, mg: silly me.

That should please the Anti all year anglers, after all, i am joining in with the groups they want to help them out